Warning for those buying a new printer

"Lyn Buchanan" <***@charter.net> wrote in message news:GNKle.37803$***@fe04.lga...
[...]

Post by Lyn Buchanan
I found out that all Epson printers are designed to let you clean your print
nozzles just so many times, and then you can't use the machine any more.

As do printers from Canon, HP, Lexmark........

Bob Headrick

2005-05-28 02:57:05 UTC

Post by Ivor Floppy
[...]

Post by Lyn Buchanan
I found out that all Epson printers are designed to let you clean your print
nozzles just so many times, and then you can't use the machine any more.

As do printers from Canon, HP, Lexmark........

This is not true for any HP DeskJet, Photosmart or PSC unit. Some printers
such as the DeskJet 450 portable do have small service station that needs to be
cleaned or replaced and it will give the user a message to that effect. None
of the aforementioned HP printers will stop printing based on the number of
cleaning cycles that have been run.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP

Arthur Entlich

2005-05-29 13:53:27 UTC

I was wondering about HP printers in this regard.

Is the reason they do not stop printing regardless of cleaning cycles
due to the quantity of ink used being very small, due to the way the
waste ink area is designed or isolated, the size of the waste ink area,
or just that in HP's design they consider ink leakage secondary to the
loss of the use of the printer?

Art

Post by Bob Headrick

Post by Ivor Floppy
[...]

Post by Lyn Buchanan
I found out that all Epson printers are designed to let you clean your print
nozzles just so many times, and then you can't use the machine any more.

As do printers from Canon, HP, Lexmark........

This is not true for any HP DeskJet, Photosmart or PSC unit. Some printers
such as the DeskJet 450 portable do have small service station that needs to be
cleaned or replaced and it will give the user a message to that effect. None
of the aforementioned HP printers will stop printing based on the number of
cleaning cycles that have been run.
Regards,
Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP

Bob Headrick

2005-05-30 00:30:59 UTC

Post by Arthur Entlich
I was wondering about HP printers in this regard.
Is the reason they do not stop printing regardless of cleaning cycles due to
the quantity of ink used being very small

There is a very large difference between the amount of ink used in an
integrated printhead system vs. the typical fixed printhead systems. In the
fixed printhead case the printheads must last the life of the printer. To
accommodate this the printer services aggressively; after a few days of non-use
the printer may run a full priming cycle at the next power-on or next print
job. For some models at a slow user rate of printing, 60% or more of the ink
may be used in servicing. As an experiment you could look at the size of the
"diaper" in your printer vs. some other manufacturers.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP

Arthur Entlich

2005-05-31 13:17:09 UTC

Thank Bob,

That's what I expected, and it's one reason I advise people who have low
and sporadic inkjet printer use to buy HP printers.

I thought I had coined the term "Diaper" for the waste ink pads, some
time back, but it seems it is an industry standard reference ;-)

Art

Post by Bob Headrick

Post by Arthur Entlich
I was wondering about HP printers in this regard.
Is the reason they do not stop printing regardless of cleaning cycles due to
the quantity of ink used being very small

There is a very large difference between the amount of ink used in an
integrated printhead system vs. the typical fixed printhead systems. In the
fixed printhead case the printheads must last the life of the printer. To
accommodate this the printer services aggressively; after a few days of non-use
the printer may run a full priming cycle at the next power-on or next print
job. For some models at a slow user rate of printing, 60% or more of the ink
may be used in servicing. As an experiment you could look at the size of the
"diaper" in your printer vs. some other manufacturers.
Regards,
Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP

Impmon

2005-05-28 04:13:24 UTC

Post by Ivor Floppy

Post by Lyn Buchanan
I found out that all Epson printers are designed to let you clean your print
nozzles just so many times, and then you can't use the machine any more.

As do printers from Canon, HP, Lexmark........

Maybe so but when my old Canon 4200 quit, I was able to do a reset,
replaced the ink pad on the bottom of the printer with some paper
towels, and kept printing on a while longer before I finally retired
that printer. I don't know if you can still circumvent waste pad full
issue on newer printers with chip reset or not.

--
When you hear the toilet flush, and hear the words "uh oh", it's already
too late. - by anonymous Mother in Austin, TX
To reply, replace digi.mon with phreaker.net

CWatters

2005-05-28 09:03:25 UTC

Post by Ivor Floppy
[...]

Post by Lyn Buchanan
I found out that all Epson printers are designed to let you clean your print
nozzles just so many times, and then you can't use the machine any more.

As do printers from Canon, HP, Lexmark........

I don't think my old HP 895 had such a device. If it did I might not have
had ink all over the place when I had to move it :-(.

On balance I'm glad it didn't because I was able to take the priner apart
and empty the tray myself.

2005-05-27 19:54:34 UTC

Yep. My last Epson was the Photo 700. When learning of the 'chip', I
switched brands when upgrading printers.
--------

On Fri, 27 May 2005 13:45:47 -0600, "Lyn Buchanan"

Post by Lyn Buchanan
This might be helpful to anyone on the list who is thinking about buying new
equipment: Please spread this to other lists, as well, in the hopes that it
will help others.
I purchased an Epson C62 printer last year, which was a good printer. I had
no complaints other than the fact that they build a chip into their ink
cartridges so you can't refill them. For most people, this is not a
problem, but I do a LOT of printing, and refilling is the only way to go.
$3 for new ink is much better than $50. The cartridge chip is something
they don't tell you about when you buy the printer, nor is there anything
about it in the manual, or on their web site. You only learn about it the
hard way - after you've already bought the machine.
Yesterday, an error message popped up and told me that "some parts of the
printer are at the end of their life cycle", and that I should take the
printer to be repaired. There is absolutely nothing in the manual about
this, so I searched the internet and found out that there is also a chip
inside the printer which counts the number of times you clean the ink
nozzles, and then it figures that the waste ink pad is dirty, so it blocks
you from using your printer at all any more until you get a new pad. This
is several hundred cleanings, so for most people, it isn't an issue, but for
people like me, who use their printer a lot, it just became a very big
issue.
The average user will take the machine to the repair shop and be faced with
a bill of at least $80 to have an ink pad changed and have the chip reset.
HOWEVER, guess what else I learned the hard way... the Epson C62's chip
can't be reset. My only resort is to buy a new machine. It is the same for
several other models, but there is no way for you to find out ahead of time
whether the model you are buying is one of them. For these models, you
evidently have to have the whole motherboard changed, at a cost of another
$100 or so, or buy another machine.... which is what this whole situation
was designed for making you do.
I found out that all Epson printers are designed to let you clean your print
nozzles just so many times, and then you can't use the machine any more.
This is not in their manuals, advertising, help files, etc. No one will
tell you this before you buy the machine. Instead of a simple warning and a
pull-out drawer where you can change the pad yourself, you are left with a
machine which is mechanically fine, but which Epson has intentionally
designed to be totally unusable unless you go out and pay a huge repair bill
or simply buy a new one.
And I thought that the cartridge chip was an underhanded thing to do to
their customers!!!
Bottom line - if you are looking for a printer that you will use a lot -
under no circumstances should you buy an Epson. Epson does not have your
best interests at heart, and they have designed their machines to make you
pay all kinds of hidden costs. I'm sure that there are other tricky traps
that I haven't uncovered, and won't - because when I go out today to buy a
new printer - it won't be an Epson.
That being their company's policy, I would not buy any of their other
products, either.
I hope that this saves someone some money and equipment headaches. Please
send this out to as many lists as you can, in the hopes that it will help
others, as well.

Kevin

2005-05-27 21:32:27 UTC

Mostly inaccurate. There is no such thing as a chip that only allows so
many nozzle cleanings on Epson printers. Yes, when the printer figures that
the waste ink pad is saturated and about to spill, it does produce the
notification you mention. This is not new information at all. It is common
knowledge that Epson cartridges are chipped. They have been for years.

Arthur Entlich

2005-05-29 13:29:32 UTC

In fairness, the descriptions are accurate.

The EEPROM has no idea if the waste ink pads are full or not. There is
a pre-programmed number of functions programmed into the EEPROM. Each
function is given a numerical value and added to the total protection
number. In reality, how full the pads are depends upon if the ink is
pigment or dye, how fast the water and other volatiles evaporate, how
long it took for the protection number to be reached, etc.

I have never seen this documented anywhere in Epson's user guides or
other non-proprietary paperwork.

Also, although the Epson cartridges have been chipped for a number of
years, it isn't exactly a "hot" item to promote in advertising.

Art

Post by Kevin
Mostly inaccurate. There is no such thing as a chip that only allows so
many nozzle cleanings on Epson printers. Yes, when the printer figures that
the waste ink pad is saturated and about to spill, it does produce the
notification you mention. This is not new information at all. It is common
knowledge that Epson cartridges are chipped. They have been for years.

Burt

2005-05-27 21:48:14 UTC

Canon printers have a "waste tank full" error code that first warns you and
subsequently shuts the printer down. Same issue that you have described in
your Epson. The reset code sequences are available on the internet for the
Canon and one reset without removing the pad and replacing it is probably
ok. I believe that some Epson codes may also be available for the same
problem. The other side of this issue is that you would be most upset if
there were no such warning and the ink oozed out of the printer onto your
antique 18th century desk! This issue has been covered in this NG in the
last few weeks. Bottom line - almost everyone agreed that the printers
should be designed to permit owner maintenance for waste ink removal.
Again, looking at the flip side, what would be Epson or Canon's liability if
your were a total klutz and got the ink all over your clothes and carpets as
you followed instructions to remove the waste ink. Probably more expensive
than buying a new printer. Believe me, I am not an apologist for these
companies. If they designed a consumer friendly waste ink removal system it
would have to be neat and well contained like the ink cartridges.

unknown

2005-05-27 21:50:49 UTC

Lyn
I don't think there is a solution for the c62;
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/60/1 (especially page 2) explains why,
you may already have tried this?
If you are forced to buy a replacement then go to
http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml which has a link listing which Epson printers
can be reset by software means. Be warned however that resetting the counter
may not be enough, in my experience you can do it at least once with most Epson
printers, after that you may be forced to replace the waste pads anyway as they
fill up. The liquid content slowly evaporates from the pads but the solid
matter does not, so eventually the pads must start to overflow....messy!
By the way I think some later printers from at least 2 vendors put the waste
ink in a special part of the cartridge, no doubt other vendors will do that
also. Also I do not believe that HP printers have this problem, certainly not
the less recent ones, there is no mechanism on any I have seen that counts the
amount of waste ink in the printer....What happens with many HP printers is
that the service station that holds the waste ink simply fills up and then the
carriage starts to "bulldoze" ink causing a fine ink mist to contaminate the
printer, fortunately this can be prevented by regularly cleaning out the
service station, there are links on the HP website with instructions for doing
this for many of their printers; other models need to be serviced (covers
removed and/or pads replaced) to achieve this.
As I mentioned above some new models from some vendors do not have this problem
in that they put the waste ink back into the cartridge, this is new technology
and yet to be proven in the marketplace, it has it's own potential issues of
course, refilling a cartridge would require emptying of the waste as well as
adding new ink!
Tony

CWatters

2005-05-28 09:06:26 UTC

Post by unknown
Lyn
I don't think there is a solution for the c62;
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/60/1 (especially page 2) explains why,
you may already have tried this?
If you are forced to buy a replacement then go to
http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml which has a link listing which Epson printers
can be reset by software means. Be warned however that resetting the counter
may not be enough, in my experience you can do it at least once with most Epson
printers, after that you may be forced to replace the waste pads anyway as they
fill up. The liquid content slowly evaporates from the pads but the solid
matter does not, so eventually the pads must start to overflow....messy!

Yes perhaps we should have anothe thread ...

Warning - some printers DON'T tell you when they are about to trash your
carpet.

I suspect the printer manufacturers have been taken to court once too
frequently.

Arthur Entlich

2005-05-29 13:38:20 UTC

According to several websites selling Epson chip resetters, there is a
univeral model that will reset C60, 61, 62, B, 80, 82 cartridges.

Art

<cut>

unknown

2005-05-29 20:06:08 UTC

Art
You are correct, I know one or two people who have used these, however unless I
misread the original post the issue here is not the cartridge but the waste pad
counter which is in the printer not the cartridge. The chips can be reset but I
understand that the waste pad counter cannot be on some Epson (and others no
doubt) printers.
Tony

Post by Arthur Entlich
According to several websites selling Epson chip resetters, there is a
univeral model that will reset C60, 61, 62, B, 80, 82 cartridges.
Art

<cut>

Arthur Entlich

2005-05-31 12:50:18 UTC

Hi Tony,

I just spent 30 minutes reviewing Epson's Service Manual for the C50,
C60, C61, C62 printers.

Now, I can't say if they are written with errors in them or not, but the
manual clearly:

1) shows the LED error code for waste ink pads being full

2) Shows the manner in which to dismantle the printer and replace the
waste ink pads

3) Indicates that the adjustment software for the C62 printer includes a
"Protection Number A" reset for waste ink pads, to be done after
replacement of the waste ink pads.

Now, I'm not saying the cost of this service is logical considering the
cost of a replacement C62 or equivalent printer, but if the manual can
be trusted, and in general the errors in them are typos and misspellings
more than outright wrong information, then indeed the C62 printer has
all the "parts" to have the waste ink pads replaced and the EEPROM reset
for the Protection number.

Art

Post by unknown
Art
You are correct, I know one or two people who have used these, however unless I
misread the original post the issue here is not the cartridge but the waste pad
counter which is in the printer not the cartridge. The chips can be reset but I
understand that the waste pad counter cannot be on some Epson (and others no
doubt) printers.
Tony

Post by Arthur Entlich
According to several websites selling Epson chip resetters, there is a
univeral model that will reset C60, 61, 62, B, 80, 82 cartridges.
Art

<cut>

unknown

2005-06-01 08:06:25 UTC

Art
I stand corrected.
I was guilty of trying to think for the poster, we normally recommend against
the procedure (including the pad replacement) because it is cheaper to replace
the printer with a similarly specified product.
I have generally found Epson manuals to be fine, my suspicion is that if there
is any vagueness it is mainly due to less than perfect translation. They are
far superior to Brother manuals which often require a degree of spiritual
guidance to follow!
Keep up the good work.
Tony

Post by Arthur Entlich
Hi Tony,
I just spent 30 minutes reviewing Epson's Service Manual for the C50,
C60, C61, C62 printers.
Now, I can't say if they are written with errors in them or not, but the
1) shows the LED error code for waste ink pads being full
2) Shows the manner in which to dismantle the printer and replace the
waste ink pads
3) Indicates that the adjustment software for the C62 printer includes a
"Protection Number A" reset for waste ink pads, to be done after
replacement of the waste ink pads.
Now, I'm not saying the cost of this service is logical considering the
cost of a replacement C62 or equivalent printer, but if the manual can
be trusted, and in general the errors in them are typos and misspellings
more than outright wrong information, then indeed the C62 printer has
all the "parts" to have the waste ink pads replaced and the EEPROM reset
for the Protection number.
Art

Post by Arthur Entlich
According to several websites selling Epson chip resetters, there is a
univeral model that will reset C60, 61, 62, B, 80, 82 cartridges.
Art

<cut>

Elmo P. Shagnasty

2005-05-27 21:56:51 UTC

Post by Lyn Buchanan
The average user will take the machine to the repair shop and be faced with
a bill of at least $80 to have an ink pad changed and have the chip reset.
HOWEVER, guess what else I learned the hard way... the Epson C62's chip
can't be reset. My only resort is to buy a new machine.

Let's see, a C62 was what--$60? And they charge $80 to change the pad?

What about the concept of a "disposable printer" don't you understand?

Suck it up, and buy a new printer. Better yet, find some $29 printers
and buy a skid of them. It's cheaper than anything else.

t***@hotmail.com

2005-05-27 23:24:17 UTC

If you print that many pages, then you shouldn't have bought a low-end
inkjet printer in the first place. You'd be better off getting business
inkjet printer or laser printer if you didn't need color. On top of
that, you want to refill your carts, which will most likely cause
issues if you're using inks that clog Epson printers. Same issue if you
were doing this to a Canon or HP. Your own fault for buying a cheap
printer for heavy duty printing.

Davy

2005-05-27 23:37:54 UTC

The Intellidge chip on the ink tank as Epson calls it is basically a
programmable device and is basically a memory device, clocking the
number of times the nozzles are 'in operation' and when a specific
level is reach it 'flags' or tells the CPU in the printer - stop
printing out of ink!

The ink level in 'chipped' Epsons are only estimated and not like that
water gauge on your car.

You can get a chip 'resetter', the base unit on which the ink tank
sits contains an electronic circuit which 'resets' the chip, thus
allowing you to refill.

Now you have just gotta be careful when buying 2nd hand printers - not
just Epsons. There is also another 'clocking device' which tells the
cpu to stop printing and this is the waste ink pad, a counter within
the cpu (which is in the printer itself) flags an address line and
say's stop printing. In this case you will have to strip the unit
down replace the waste pad and reset the CPU but this time you will
have to put the printer in 'service mode' apply a programme to reset
all the data held in memory.

This does count the number of cleaning cycles.

There may well be more simpler way's to do this operation and the
reason of bringing this up is that 2nd hand printers may not have had
a 'full service'.

How do I know....Well I had my C62 for about 8 months, "print head"
said the dealer literally throwing it in the bin, the replacement
went the same way in about the same length of time.

Whilst under warrenty I ensured I used Epson inks and what a sucker I
was....! The unit will clog whether you use Epson inks or not.

I have said before and will again here, what are you to do when you go
away on holiday - come back and buy a new printer. No mention of
preventative head clogging in the manual is there.

For more see 'Woe of Epson (C62)' and 'Ode to Epson'

The garbage man takes our bin no matter whats in, the other day he saw
an Epson in and he refused to take the bin.....Lol...

Davy

Ivor Floppy

2005-05-27 23:51:38 UTC

"Davy" <***@blueyonder.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message news:4297af52$***@alt.athenanews.com...
[..]

Post by Davy
I have said before and will again here, what are you to do when you go
away on holiday - come back and buy a new printer. No mention of
preventative head clogging in the manual is there.

Yet my Epson 460 sits for months at a time between uses, and everytime I
power it up it never has any clogged nozzles. Using 3rd party inks too.

measekite

2005-05-28 00:48:46 UTC

Post by Ivor Floppy
[..]

Yet my Epson 460 sits for months at a time between uses, and everytime I
power it up it never has any clogged nozzles. Using 3rd party inks too.

Who is the manufacturer/formulator of you 3rd party inks?

Davy

2005-05-28 10:33:35 UTC

Post by unknown
Lyn
I don't think there is a solution for the c62;
Davy say's
Yes there is, toss it in the middle of the Pacific or on the

driveway of Seiko Epson.

Trapezium

2005-05-28 20:59:37 UTC

Post by Lyn Buchanan
This might be helpful to anyone on the list who is thinking about buying new
equipment: Please spread this to other lists, as well, in the hopes that it
will help others.

This is usual - and the usual answer is to run this utility to reset the
printer.

http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml

Download, apply, and forget about Epson's trickery. I've used it a couple
of times on a C60 with no adverse effect at all. Obviously, the drip sponge
will eventually become saturate and will have to be replaced - but I can
tell you from experience that Epson set their 'warning' far to soon - in the
case of a moderately used printer you can expect another year or two of use
before the SSC utility becomes unviable due to saturation of the sponge.

Shooter

2005-05-28 22:36:31 UTC

Post by Lyn Buchanan
This might be helpful to anyone on the list who is thinking about buying new
equipment: Please spread this to other lists, as well, in the hopes

that

Post by Lyn Buchanan
it
will help others.

This is usual - and the usual answer is to run this utility to reset the
printer.
http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml
Download, apply, and forget about Epson's trickery. I've used it a couple
of times on a C60 with no adverse effect at all. Obviously, the drip sponge
will eventually become saturate and will have to be replaced - but I can
tell you from experience that Epson set their 'warning' far to soon - in the
case of a moderately used printer you can expect another year or two of use
before the SSC utility becomes unviable due to saturation of the sponge.

I think you have been very lucky and to suggest a user uses the SSC util
twice is pushing the luck machine to the limits. It's akin to jumping into a
lake not being able to swim and hope you can reach the bottom with your
feet, yes, you drown, with a printer you have a hell of a mess, you only do
it once.

Epson measure the waste ink in points and for example a 2100/2200 allows
60.000 points before the leds flash. if you take a reading and and get
anything over 40,000 then you have to change the pads before resetting.

Many of these printers have a single tube which runs from the pump to the
waste pad, it is a simple job to re-route this tube and extend it to a waste
bottle hence no more problems with waste ink. Infact if you use a CIS it is
essential that a waste bottle is fitted otherwise the user would very
quickly reach the figure of no return.

Future printers may well adopt the Epson method of channelling the waste
back to the ink cart as they do in the Picturemate, the down side to that is
refilling the carts as well as re-setting them.

I use an Epson 2100 and only have ever used third party dye ink and the
results are stunning., however how long they will last is another matter. OK
Epson would not touch my printer for repair but if something really bad
happens it would be cheaper to replace than repair.

Trapezium

2005-05-28 23:10:58 UTC

Post by Lyn Buchanan
This might be helpful to anyone on the list who is thinking about
buying
new
equipment: Please spread this to other lists, as well, in the hopes

that

Post by Lyn Buchanan
it
will help others.

sponge

Post by Trapezium
will eventually become saturate and will have to be replaced - but I can
tell you from experience that Epson set their 'warning' far to soon - in

the

Post by Trapezium
case of a moderately used printer you can expect another year or two of

use

Post by Trapezium
before the SSC utility becomes unviable due to saturation of the sponge.

I think you have been very lucky and to suggest a user uses the SSC util
twice is pushing the luck machine to the limits. It's akin to jumping into a
lake not being able to swim and hope you can reach the bottom with your
feet, yes, you drown, with a printer you have a hell of a mess, you only do
it once.
Epson measure the waste ink in points and for example a 2100/2200 allows
60.000 points before the leds flash. if you take a reading and and get
anything over 40,000 then you have to change the pads before resetting.
Many of these printers have a single tube which runs from the pump to the
waste pad, it is a simple job to re-route this tube and extend it to a waste
bottle hence no more problems with waste ink. Infact if you use a CIS it is
essential that a waste bottle is fitted otherwise the user would very
quickly reach the figure of no return.
Future printers may well adopt the Epson method of channelling the waste
back to the ink cart as they do in the Picturemate, the down side to that is
refilling the carts as well as re-setting them.
I use an Epson 2100 and only have ever used third party dye ink and the
results are stunning., however how long they will last is another matter. OK
Epson would not touch my printer for repair but if something really bad
happens it would be cheaper to replace than repair.<<

I can only speak from my own experience - two rests, no problems. I'll try
another rest if/when I have to and see what happens. After all, most people
would junk the machine given the high cost of foam pad replacement - so
what's to lose?

I also use third-party ink and my local Epson service centre (franchised)
has no problem accepting Epson's in for warranty work with non-Epson inks in
the machine. I haven't had to take mine in, but I mentioned that I was
keeping the originals just in case it ever needed to be seen in 'genuine'
condition - and they told me not to bother because it made no difference to
them what ink was in it.

I assume that they're very keen to perform warranty work - and aren't going
to turn it away by quibbling about the brand of ink.

Shooter

2005-05-29 12:08:25 UTC

Post by Lyn Buchanan
This might be helpful to anyone on the list who is thinking about
buying
new
equipment: Please spread this to other lists, as well, in the hopes

that

Post by Lyn Buchanan
it
will help others.

sponge

Post by Trapezium
will eventually become saturate and will have to be replaced - but I can
tell you from experience that Epson set their 'warning' far to soon - in

the

Post by Trapezium
case of a moderately used printer you can expect another year or two of

use

Post by Trapezium
before the SSC utility becomes unviable due to saturation of the sponge.

I think you have been very lucky and to suggest a user uses the SSC util
twice is pushing the luck machine to the limits. It's akin to jumping

into

Post by Trapezium
a
lake not being able to swim and hope you can reach the bottom with your
feet, yes, you drown, with a printer you have a hell of a mess, you only do
it once.
Epson measure the waste ink in points and for example a 2100/2200 allows
60.000 points before the leds flash. if you take a reading and and get
anything over 40,000 then you have to change the pads before resetting.
Many of these printers have a single tube which runs from the pump to the
waste pad, it is a simple job to re-route this tube and extend it to a waste
bottle hence no more problems with waste ink. Infact if you use a CIS it is
essential that a waste bottle is fitted otherwise the user would very
quickly reach the figure of no return.
Future printers may well adopt the Epson method of channelling the waste
back to the ink cart as they do in the Picturemate, the down side to

that

Post by Trapezium
is
refilling the carts as well as re-setting them.
I use an Epson 2100 and only have ever used third party dye ink and the
results are stunning., however how long they will last is another

matter.

Post by Trapezium
OK
Epson would not touch my printer for repair but if something really bad
happens it would be cheaper to replace than repair.<<

I can only speak from my own experience - two rests, no problems. I'll try
another rest if/when I have to and see what happens. After all, most people
would junk the machine given the high cost of foam pad replacement - so
what's to lose?
I also use third-party ink and my local Epson service centre (franchised)
has no problem accepting Epson's in for warranty work with non-Epson inks in
the machine. I haven't had to take mine in, but I mentioned that I was
keeping the originals just in case it ever needed to be seen in 'genuine'
condition - and they told me not to bother because it made no difference to
them what ink was in it.
I assume that they're very keen to perform warranty work - and aren't going
to turn it away by quibbling about the brand of ink.

Just a point to purchase waste pads in the UK for a 2100 is a little over
£20 and that includes shipping of £10 in the US the price is $20 for all six
pads. not an expensive item if you have a top end printer.

Let me share my experience with you, I called Epson UK while under warranty
and asked for the problem of wheel marks on glossy paper to be corrected, in
the conversation I was asked if I used Epson Ink. I been an honest person
said I did, I was told that my warranty was invalid for two reasons first
because I used third party ink and second because I used glossy paper.

Now if you look at the paper recomennded by Epson for a 2100/2200 you will
see the machine and Epson only support semigloss. So I took them to court
and lost my claim on those two points, Ink and paper. Ok I am lucky as I was
able to conduct my own litigation, but it proves a point that Epson in the
UK do not support warranty claims if you use third party ink, and that in
days when a 2100 cost over £500 not a cheapie machine but made no difference
I lost.

Arthur Entlich

2005-05-29 14:29:52 UTC

Now, let's be clear about something's you mention here, for the sake of
accuracy and understanding..

If I understand what you posted, you sued Epson regarding a problem with
wheel marks on Glossy paper. Epson indicated that in the matter of
wheel marks, they would not warrant for two reasons:

1) You used third party inks

2) You use a paper type that was not indicated as appropriate for this
printer (even with Epson inks).

Do I understand this correctly?

At no time did Epson indicate that the heads would not be covered for
either of these two reasons, for instance, or that the transport motor
wouldn't be covered for these two reasons, or am I misunderstanding you?

The wheel marks are directly related to the type of inks and papers you
use. They alter drying speed and compatibility of the rollers with the
print. That makes sense. If I used water soluble glue in a design
project and when I left it outside, the glue washed away and the project
fell apart, I think the Court could under stand that my expectations
were both inaccurate and unreasonable.

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding what you are stating here.

Art

Post by Lyn Buchanan
This might be helpful to anyone on the list who is thinking about
buying
new
equipment: Please spread this to other lists, as well, in the hopes

that

Post by Lyn Buchanan
it
will help others.

This is usual - and the usual answer is to run this utility to reset

the

Post by Trapezium
printer.
http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml
Download, apply, and forget about Epson's trickery. I've used it a couple
of times on a C60 with no adverse effect at all. Obviously, the drip

sponge

Post by Trapezium
will eventually become saturate and will have to be replaced - but I

can

Post by Trapezium
tell you from experience that Epson set their 'warning' far to soon -

Post by Trapezium
case of a moderately used printer you can expect another year or two of

use

Post by Trapezium
before the SSC utility becomes unviable due to saturation of the

sponge.

Post by Trapezium
I think you have been very lucky and to suggest a user uses the SSC util
twice is pushing the luck machine to the limits. It's akin to jumping

into

the

Post by Trapezium
waste pad, it is a simple job to re-route this tube and extend it to a waste
bottle hence no more problems with waste ink. Infact if you use a CIS it is
essential that a waste bottle is fitted otherwise the user would very
quickly reach the figure of no return.
Future printers may well adopt the Epson method of channelling the waste
back to the ink cart as they do in the Picturemate, the down side to

that

matter.

Post by Trapezium
OK
Epson would not touch my printer for repair but if something really bad
happens it would be cheaper to replace than repair.<<

I can only speak from my own experience - two rests, no problems. I'll try
another rest if/when I have to and see what happens. After all, most

people

Post by Trapezium
would junk the machine given the high cost of foam pad replacement - so
what's to lose?
I also use third-party ink and my local Epson service centre (franchised)
has no problem accepting Epson's in for warranty work with non-Epson inks

Post by Trapezium
the machine. I haven't had to take mine in, but I mentioned that I was
keeping the originals just in case it ever needed to be seen in 'genuine'
condition - and they told me not to bother because it made no difference

Post by Trapezium
them what ink was in it.
I assume that they're very keen to perform warranty work - and aren't

going

Post by Trapezium
to turn it away by quibbling about the brand of ink.

Just a point to purchase waste pads in the UK for a 2100 is a little over
£20 and that includes shipping of £10 in the US the price is $20 for all six
pads. not an expensive item if you have a top end printer.
Let me share my experience with you, I called Epson UK while under warranty
and asked for the problem of wheel marks on glossy paper to be corrected, in
the conversation I was asked if I used Epson Ink. I been an honest person
said I did, I was told that my warranty was invalid for two reasons first
because I used third party ink and second because I used glossy paper.
Now if you look at the paper recomennded by Epson for a 2100/2200 you will
see the machine and Epson only support semigloss. So I took them to court
and lost my claim on those two points, Ink and paper. Ok I am lucky as I was
able to conduct my own litigation, but it proves a point that Epson in the
UK do not support warranty claims if you use third party ink, and that in
days when a 2100 cost over £500 not a cheapie machine but made no difference
I lost.

measekite

2005-05-29 15:25:16 UTC

Why should they warrant performance when using ink that is not recommended

Post by Arthur Entlich
2) You use a paper type that was not indicated as appropriate for this
printer (even with Epson inks).

It has been long accepted that generic paper made to standard
specifications are treated differently from inks.

Post by Arthur Entlich
Do I understand this correctly?
At no time did Epson indicate that the heads would not be covered for
either of these two reasons, for instance, or that the transport motor
wouldn't be covered for these two reasons, or am I misunderstanding you?
The wheel marks are directly related to the type of inks and papers
you use. They alter drying speed and compatibility of the rollers
with the print. That makes sense. If I used water soluble glue in a
design project and when I left it outside, the glue washed away and
the project fell apart, I think the Court could under stand that my
expectations were both inaccurate and unreasonable.
Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding what you are stating here.
Art

Post by Lyn Buchanan
This might be helpful to anyone on the list who is thinking about
buying
new
equipment: Please spread this to other lists, as well, in the hopes

that

Post by Lyn Buchanan
it
will help others.

This is usual - and the usual answer is to run this utility to reset

the

sponge

Post by Trapezium
will eventually become saturate and will have to be replaced - but I

can

Post by Trapezium
tell you from experience that Epson set their 'warning' far to soon -

Post by Trapezium
case of a moderately used printer you can expect another year or two of

use

Post by Trapezium
before the SSC utility becomes unviable due to saturation of the

sponge.

Post by Trapezium
I think you have been very lucky and to suggest a user uses the SSC util
twice is pushing the luck machine to the limits. It's akin to jumping

into

the

Post by Trapezium
waste pad, it is a simple job to re-route this tube and extend it to a waste
bottle hence no more problems with waste ink. Infact if you use a
CIS it
is
essential that a waste bottle is fitted otherwise the user would very
quickly reach the figure of no return.
Future printers may well adopt the Epson method of channelling the waste
back to the ink cart as they do in the Picturemate, the down side to

that

matter.

Post by Trapezium
OK
Epson would not touch my printer for repair but if something really bad
happens it would be cheaper to replace than repair.<<

I can only speak from my own experience - two rests, no problems. I'll try
another rest if/when I have to and see what happens. After all, most

people

Post by Trapezium
would junk the machine given the high cost of foam pad replacement - so
what's to lose?
I also use third-party ink and my local Epson service centre
(franchised)
has no problem accepting Epson's in for warranty work with non-Epson inks

Post by Trapezium
them what ink was in it.
I assume that they're very keen to perform warranty work - and aren't

going

Post by Trapezium
to turn it away by quibbling about the brand of ink.

Just a point to purchase waste pads in the UK for a 2100 is a little over
£20 and that includes shipping of £10 in the US the price is $20 for all six
pads. not an expensive item if you have a top end printer.
Let me share my experience with you, I called Epson UK while under warranty
and asked for the problem of wheel marks on glossy paper to be corrected, in
the conversation I was asked if I used Epson Ink. I been an honest person
said I did, I was told that my warranty was invalid for two reasons first
because I used third party ink and second because I used glossy paper.
Now if you look at the paper recomennded by Epson for a 2100/2200
you will
see the machine and Epson only support semigloss. So I took them to court
and lost my claim on those two points, Ink and paper. Ok I am lucky as I was
able to conduct my own litigation, but it proves a point that Epson in the
UK do not support warranty claims if you use third party ink, and that in
days when a 2100 cost over £500 not a cheapie machine but made no difference
I lost.

Shooter

2005-05-29 22:08:34 UTC

Point one and two are correct, and no the paper factor had nothing to do
with the ink used both were separate issues. With point two inks were not an
issue. As I stated two separate issues. I tried and failed to argue that a
printer advertised as a photo printer should be able to print on glossy
paper. The court decided that there was no deception on the part of Epson.

Post by Arthur Entlich
Now, let's be clear about something's you mention here, for the sake of
accuracy and understanding..
If I understand what you posted, you sued Epson regarding a problem with
wheel marks on Glossy paper. Epson indicated that in the matter of
1) You used third party inks
2) You use a paper type that was not indicated as appropriate for this
printer (even with Epson inks).
Do I understand this correctly?
At no time did Epson indicate that the heads would not be covered for
either of these two reasons, for instance, or that the transport motor
wouldn't be covered for these two reasons, or am I misunderstanding you?
The wheel marks are directly related to the type of inks and papers you
use. They alter drying speed and compatibility of the rollers with the
print. That makes sense. If I used water soluble glue in a design
project and when I left it outside, the glue washed away and the project
fell apart, I think the Court could under stand that my expectations
were both inaccurate and unreasonable.
Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding what you are stating here.
Art

Post by Lyn Buchanan
This might be helpful to anyone on the list who is thinking about
buying
new
equipment: Please spread this to other lists, as well, in the hopes

that

Post by Lyn Buchanan
it
will help others.

This is usual - and the usual answer is to run this utility to reset

the

sponge

Post by Trapezium
will eventually become saturate and will have to be replaced - but I

can

Post by Trapezium
tell you from experience that Epson set their 'warning' far to soon -

Post by Trapezium
case of a moderately used printer you can expect another year or two of

use

Post by Trapezium
before the SSC utility becomes unviable due to saturation of the

sponge.

Post by Trapezium
I think you have been very lucky and to suggest a user uses the SSC util
twice is pushing the luck machine to the limits. It's akin to jumping

into

Post by Trapezium
a
lake not being able to swim and hope you can reach the bottom with your
feet, yes, you drown, with a printer you have a hell of a mess, you

only

Post by Trapezium
do
it once.
Epson measure the waste ink in points and for example a 2100/2200 allows
60.000 points before the leds flash. if you take a reading and and get
anything over 40,000 then you have to change the pads before resetting.
Many of these printers have a single tube which runs from the pump to

the

Post by Trapezium
waste pad, it is a simple job to re-route this tube and extend it to a waste
bottle hence no more problems with waste ink. Infact if you use a CIS

Post by Trapezium
is
essential that a waste bottle is fitted otherwise the user would very
quickly reach the figure of no return.
Future printers may well adopt the Epson method of channelling the waste
back to the ink cart as they do in the Picturemate, the down side to

that

matter.

Post by Trapezium
OK
Epson would not touch my printer for repair but if something really bad
happens it would be cheaper to replace than repair.<<

I can only speak from my own experience - two rests, no problems. I'll try
another rest if/when I have to and see what happens. After all, most

people

Post by Trapezium
would junk the machine given the high cost of foam pad replacement - so
what's to lose?
I also use third-party ink and my local Epson service centre

(franchised)

Post by Trapezium
has no problem accepting Epson's in for warranty work with non-Epson inks

Post by Trapezium
them what ink was in it.
I assume that they're very keen to perform warranty work - and aren't

going

Post by Trapezium
to turn it away by quibbling about the brand of ink.

Just a point to purchase waste pads in the UK for a 2100 is a little over
£20 and that includes shipping of £10 in the US the price is $20 for all six
pads. not an expensive item if you have a top end printer.
Let me share my experience with you, I called Epson UK while under warranty
and asked for the problem of wheel marks on glossy paper to be corrected, in
the conversation I was asked if I used Epson Ink. I been an honest person
said I did, I was told that my warranty was invalid for two reasons first
because I used third party ink and second because I used glossy paper.
Now if you look at the paper recomennded by Epson for a 2100/2200 you will
see the machine and Epson only support semigloss. So I took them to court
and lost my claim on those two points, Ink and paper. Ok I am lucky as I was
able to conduct my own litigation, but it proves a point that Epson in the
UK do not support warranty claims if you use third party ink, and that in
days when a 2100 cost over £500 not a cheapie machine but made no difference
I lost.

Arthur Entlich

2005-05-31 13:04:11 UTC

Just to be clear, kudos fro being willing to go to court over something
you believed in, and for going through the process. In this case, I
think the judge made a correct decision, because Epson did not advertise
the printer would work with the paper in question. For Epson, at least,
the concept of a "photo" printer is one that has the extra low
dye/pigment load inks that are supposed to provide greater blending
"more like a photo". As to if that definition hold water is another
issue, however.

Many photos are matte or semi-matte surfaced. I'm sure one can print
glossy prints in the 2100/2200 anyway, by either using different paper
than the one in question, or by removing or adapting the output wheels.

I think a more interesting lawsuit would be regarding the waste ink
pads, the non-refillable cartridges would make a good environmental
legislative issue, etc.

There are a number of issues I'd love to get some activity on regarding
the inkjet ink and printer market.. maybe one day.

Art

Post by Shooter
Point one and two are correct, and no the paper factor had nothing to do
with the ink used both were separate issues. With point two inks were not an
issue. As I stated two separate issues. I tried and failed to argue that a
printer advertised as a photo printer should be able to print on glossy
paper. The court decided that there was no deception on the part of Epson.

Post by Lyn Buchanan
This might be helpful to anyone on the list who is thinking about
buying
new
equipment: Please spread this to other lists, as well, in the hopes

that

Post by Lyn Buchanan
it
will help others.

This is usual - and the usual answer is to run this utility to reset

the

sponge

Post by Trapezium
will eventually become saturate and will have to be replaced - but I

can

Post by Trapezium
tell you from experience that Epson set their 'warning' far to soon -

Post by Trapezium
case of a moderately used printer you can expect another year or two

Post by Trapezium
use

Post by Trapezium
before the SSC utility becomes unviable due to saturation of the

sponge.

Post by Trapezium
I think you have been very lucky and to suggest a user uses the SSC

util

Post by Trapezium
twice is pushing the luck machine to the limits. It's akin to jumping

into

Post by Trapezium
a
lake not being able to swim and hope you can reach the bottom with your
feet, yes, you drown, with a printer you have a hell of a mess, you

only

Post by Trapezium
do
it once.
Epson measure the waste ink in points and for example a 2100/2200

allows

Post by Trapezium
60.000 points before the leds flash. if you take a reading and and get
anything over 40,000 then you have to change the pads before resetting.
Many of these printers have a single tube which runs from the pump to

the

Post by Trapezium
waste pad, it is a simple job to re-route this tube and extend it to a waste
bottle hence no more problems with waste ink. Infact if you use a CIS

Post by Trapezium
is
essential that a waste bottle is fitted otherwise the user would very
quickly reach the figure of no return.
Future printers may well adopt the Epson method of channelling the

waste

Post by Trapezium
back to the ink cart as they do in the Picturemate, the down side to

that

matter.

Post by Trapezium
OK
Epson would not touch my printer for repair but if something really bad
happens it would be cheaper to replace than repair.<<

I can only speak from my own experience - two rests, no problems. I'll

try

Post by Trapezium
another rest if/when I have to and see what happens. After all, most

people

Post by Trapezium
would junk the machine given the high cost of foam pad replacement - so
what's to lose?
I also use third-party ink and my local Epson service centre

(franchised)

Post by Trapezium
has no problem accepting Epson's in for warranty work with non-Epson

inks

Post by Trapezium
in

Post by Trapezium
the machine. I haven't had to take mine in, but I mentioned that I was
keeping the originals just in case it ever needed to be seen in

'genuine'

Post by Trapezium
condition - and they told me not to bother because it made no difference

Post by Trapezium
them what ink was in it.
I assume that they're very keen to perform warranty work - and aren't

going

Post by Trapezium
to turn it away by quibbling about the brand of ink.

Just a point to purchase waste pads in the UK for a 2100 is a little

over

Post by Trapezium
£20 and that includes shipping of £10 in the US the price is $20 for all

six

Post by Trapezium
pads. not an expensive item if you have a top end printer.
Let me share my experience with you, I called Epson UK while under

warranty

Post by Trapezium
and asked for the problem of wheel marks on glossy paper to be

corrected, in

Post by Trapezium
the conversation I was asked if I used Epson Ink. I been an honest

person

Post by Trapezium
said I did, I was told that my warranty was invalid for two reasons

first

Post by Trapezium
because I used third party ink and second because I used glossy paper.
Now if you look at the paper recomennded by Epson for a 2100/2200 you

will

Post by Trapezium
see the machine and Epson only support semigloss. So I took them to

court

Post by Trapezium
and lost my claim on those two points, Ink and paper. Ok I am lucky as I

was

Post by Trapezium
able to conduct my own litigation, but it proves a point that Epson in

the

Post by Trapezium
UK do not support warranty claims if you use third party ink, and that

Post by Trapezium
days when a 2100 cost over £500 not a cheapie machine but made no

difference

Post by Trapezium
I lost.

measekite

2005-05-31 16:35:30 UTC

Post by Arthur Entlich
Just to be clear, kudos fro being willing to go to court over
something you believed in, and for going through the process. In this
case, I think the judge made a correct decision, because Epson did not
advertise the printer would work with the paper in question. For
Epson, at least, the concept of a "photo" printer is one that has the
extra low dye/pigment load inks that are supposed to provide greater
blending "more like a photo". As to if that definition hold water is
another issue, however.
Many photos are matte or semi-matte surfaced. I'm sure one can print
glossy prints in the 2100/2200 anyway, by either using different paper
than the one in question, or by removing or adapting the output wheels.
I think a more interesting lawsuit would be regarding the waste ink
pads, the non-refillable cartridges would make a good environmental
legislative issue, etc.
There are a number of issues I'd love to get some activity on regarding
the inkjet ink and printer market.. maybe one day.
Art

Go sue Epson. Old farts have nothing more to do with their time except
to write Epson manuals for free.

Post by Lyn Buchanan
This might be helpful to anyone on the list who is thinking about
buying
new
equipment: Please spread this to other lists, as well, in the hopes

that

Post by Lyn Buchanan
it
will help others.

This is usual - and the usual answer is to run this utility to reset

the

sponge

Post by Trapezium
will eventually become saturate and will have to be replaced - but I

can

Post by Trapezium
tell you from experience that Epson set their 'warning' far to soon -

Post by Trapezium
case of a moderately used printer you can expect another year or two

Post by Trapezium
use

Post by Trapezium
before the SSC utility becomes unviable due to saturation of the

sponge.

Post by Trapezium
I think you have been very lucky and to suggest a user uses the SSC

util

Post by Trapezium
twice is pushing the luck machine to the limits. It's akin to jumping

into

Post by Trapezium
a
lake not being able to swim and hope you can reach the bottom with your
feet, yes, you drown, with a printer you have a hell of a mess, you

only

Post by Trapezium
do
it once.
Epson measure the waste ink in points and for example a 2100/2200

allows

the

Post by Trapezium
waste pad, it is a simple job to re-route this tube and extend it
to a
waste
bottle hence no more problems with waste ink. Infact if you use a CIS

Post by Trapezium
is
essential that a waste bottle is fitted otherwise the user would very
quickly reach the figure of no return.
Future printers may well adopt the Epson method of channelling the

waste

Post by Trapezium
back to the ink cart as they do in the Picturemate, the down side to

that

matter.

Post by Trapezium
OK
Epson would not touch my printer for repair but if something really bad
happens it would be cheaper to replace than repair.<<

I can only speak from my own experience - two rests, no problems. I'll

try

Post by Trapezium
another rest if/when I have to and see what happens. After all, most

people

Post by Trapezium
would junk the machine given the high cost of foam pad
replacement - so
what's to lose?
I also use third-party ink and my local Epson service centre

(franchised)

Post by Trapezium
has no problem accepting Epson's in for warranty work with non-Epson

inks

Post by Trapezium
in

Post by Trapezium
the machine. I haven't had to take mine in, but I mentioned that I was
keeping the originals just in case it ever needed to be seen in

'genuine'

Post by Trapezium
condition - and they told me not to bother because it made no difference

Post by Trapezium
them what ink was in it.
I assume that they're very keen to perform warranty work - and aren't

going

Post by Trapezium
to turn it away by quibbling about the brand of ink.

Just a point to purchase waste pads in the UK for a 2100 is a little

over

Post by Trapezium
£20 and that includes shipping of £10 in the US the price is $20 for all

six

Post by Trapezium
pads. not an expensive item if you have a top end printer.
Let me share my experience with you, I called Epson UK while under

warranty

Post by Trapezium
and asked for the problem of wheel marks on glossy paper to be

corrected, in

Post by Trapezium
the conversation I was asked if I used Epson Ink. I been an honest

person

Post by Trapezium
said I did, I was told that my warranty was invalid for two reasons

first

Post by Trapezium
because I used third party ink and second because I used glossy paper.
Now if you look at the paper recomennded by Epson for a 2100/2200 you

will

Post by Trapezium
see the machine and Epson only support semigloss. So I took them to

court

Post by Trapezium
and lost my claim on those two points, Ink and paper. Ok I am lucky as I

was

Post by Trapezium
able to conduct my own litigation, but it proves a point that Epson in

the

Post by Trapezium
UK do not support warranty claims if you use third party ink, and that

Post by Trapezium
days when a 2100 cost over £500 not a cheapie machine but made no

difference

Post by Trapezium
I lost.

Trapezium

2005-05-29 17:35:40 UTC

Post by Shooter
Just a point to purchase waste pads in the UK for a 2100 is a little over
£20 and that includes shipping of £10 in the US the price is $20 for all six
pads. not an expensive item if you have a top end printer.
Let me share my experience with you, I called Epson UK while under warranty
and asked for the problem of wheel marks on glossy paper to be corrected, in
the conversation I was asked if I used Epson Ink. I been an honest person
said I did, I was told that my warranty was invalid for two reasons first
because I used third party ink and second because I used glossy paper.
Now if you look at the paper recomennded by Epson for a 2100/2200 you will
see the machine and Epson only support semigloss. So I took them to court
and lost my claim on those two points, Ink and paper. Ok I am lucky as I was
able to conduct my own litigation, but it proves a point that Epson in the
UK do not support warranty claims if you use third party ink, and that in
days when a 2100 cost over £500 not a cheapie machine but made no difference
I lost.

Bad luck with the claim - there's a moral for us all, 'Yes, of course I used
Epson consumables......"

As far as my local service centre goes, they are a private company who
undertake Epson's warranty repairs for the area, and they don't care if the
ink tanks are filled with Fairy Liquid as long as they can put in a claim to
Epson for work performed.

Shooter

2005-05-29 22:53:02 UTC

Ok I lost the claim but I got a lot of satisfaction when they were refused
costs. But more important, imagine a fairly full court room filled with
Epson people, four I believe plus two legals, when I walk in with wig and
gown, if only I could have used a camera, as they believed that I the
plaintiff was just a bloke off the street and even though I lost I had a
full half hour to cross, I can assure you that faces were red. maybe that's
why they failed to get costs. I am sure their cost was far above what it
would have cost them to refund the cost of the printer. So perhaps in
another way I didn't loose.

In the UK the contract is with the seller and not the manufacturer but how
could I really blame the retailer for what I considered a manufacturers
short coming.

corrected,

Post by Shooter
in
the conversation I was asked if I used Epson Ink. I been an honest person
said I did, I was told that my warranty was invalid for two reasons first
because I used third party ink and second because I used glossy paper.
Now if you look at the paper recomennded by Epson for a 2100/2200 you will
see the machine and Epson only support semigloss. So I took them to court
and lost my claim on those two points, Ink and paper. Ok I am lucky as I was
able to conduct my own litigation, but it proves a point that Epson in the
UK do not support warranty claims if you use third party ink, and that in
days when a 2100 cost over £500 not a cheapie machine but made no difference
I lost.

Bad luck with the claim - there's a moral for us all, 'Yes, of course I used
Epson consumables......"
As far as my local service centre goes, they are a private company who
undertake Epson's warranty repairs for the area, and they don't care if the
ink tanks are filled with Fairy Liquid as long as they can put in a claim to
Epson for work performed.

measekite

2005-05-30 00:58:26 UTC

Post by Shooter
Ok I lost the claim but I got a lot of satisfaction when they were refused
costs. But more important, imagine a fairly full court room filled with
Epson people, four I believe plus two legals, when I walk in with wig and
gown, if only I could have used a camera, as they believed that I the
plaintiff was just a bloke

What is a bloke?

Post by Shooter
off the street and even though I lost I had a
full half hour to cross, I can assure you that faces were red. maybe that's
why they failed to get costs. I am sure their cost was far above what it
would have cost them to refund the cost of the printer. So perhaps in
another way I didn't loose.
In the UK the contract is with the seller and not the manufacturer but how
could I really blame the retailer for what I considered a manufacturers
short coming.

Sock it to em! eh?

Post by Shooter
Just a point to purchase waste pads in the UK for a 2100 is a little

over

Post by Shooter
£20 and that includes shipping of £10 in the US the price is $20 for all six
pads. not an expensive item if you have a top end printer.
Let me share my experience with you, I called Epson UK while under warranty
and asked for the problem of wheel marks on glossy paper to be

corrected,

Post by Shooter
in
the conversation I was asked if I used Epson Ink. I been an honest

person

Post by Shooter
said I did, I was told that my warranty was invalid for two reasons

first

Post by Shooter
because I used third party ink and second because I used glossy paper.
Now if you look at the paper recomennded by Epson for a 2100/2200 you will
see the machine and Epson only support semigloss. So I took them to

court

Post by Shooter
and lost my claim on those two points, Ink and paper. Ok I am lucky as I was
able to conduct my own litigation, but it proves a point that Epson in

the

Post by Shooter
UK do not support warranty claims if you use third party ink, and that

Post by Shooter
days when a 2100 cost over £500 not a cheapie machine but made no difference
I lost.

Bad luck with the claim - there's a moral for us all, 'Yes, of course I

used

Post by Trapezium
Epson consumables......"
As far as my local service centre goes, they are a private company who
undertake Epson's warranty repairs for the area, and they don't care if

the

Post by Trapezium
ink tanks are filled with Fairy Liquid as long as they can put in a claim

Post by Trapezium
Epson for work performed.

Shooter

2005-05-30 11:41:57 UTC

English slang for person.

What is a bloke?

Sock it to em! eh?

Post by Shooter
Just a point to purchase waste pads in the UK for a 2100 is a little

over

Post by Shooter
£20 and that includes shipping of £10 in the US the price is $20 for

all

Post by Shooter
six
pads. not an expensive item if you have a top end printer.
Let me share my experience with you, I called Epson UK while under warranty
and asked for the problem of wheel marks on glossy paper to be

corrected,

Post by Shooter
in
the conversation I was asked if I used Epson Ink. I been an honest

person

Post by Shooter
said I did, I was told that my warranty was invalid for two reasons

first

court

Post by Shooter
and lost my claim on those two points, Ink and paper. Ok I am lucky as

Post by Shooter
was
able to conduct my own litigation, but it proves a point that Epson in

the

Post by Shooter
UK do not support warranty claims if you use third party ink, and that

Post by Shooter
days when a 2100 cost over £500 not a cheapie machine but made no difference
I lost.

Bad luck with the claim - there's a moral for us all, 'Yes, of course I

used

Post by Trapezium
Epson consumables......"
As far as my local service centre goes, they are a private company who
undertake Epson's warranty repairs for the area, and they don't care if

the

Post by Trapezium
ink tanks are filled with Fairy Liquid as long as they can put in a claim

Post by Trapezium
Epson for work performed.

Arthur Entlich

2005-05-31 13:39:14 UTC

Wouldn't that be "English slang for an "regular guy""

Art.

Post by Shooter
English slang for person.

Post by Shooter
Ok I lost the claim but I got a lot of satisfaction when they were

refused

Post by Shooter
costs. But more important, imagine a fairly full court room filled with
Epson people, four I believe plus two legals, when I walk in with wig

and

Post by Shooter
gown, if only I could have used a camera, as they believed that I the
plaintiff was just a bloke

What is a bloke?

Shooter

2005-05-31 14:08:07 UTC

Art,

Yes I think it would. The reason I used the description a "bloke" is
because I use speech recognition for all my user group replies so as spoken
it's printed. Perhaps in the past I have trained it for the word "bloke" I
suppose I should check what I say a little more but one becomes a little
lazy with 99% accuracy. I am a little unsure though if "regular guy" is a
term used in the UK. Perhaps in hindsight I could have used "regular Joe off
the street." Ah well, does it really matter as one poster stated, he could
not care less if I went to court of what I had for breakfast., we have
another saying, nothing so strange as people.

Post by Arthur Entlich
Wouldn't that be "English slang for an "regular guy""
Art.

Post by Shooter
English slang for person.

Post by Shooter
Ok I lost the claim but I got a lot of satisfaction when they were

refused

Post by Shooter
costs. But more important, imagine a fairly full court room filled with
Epson people, four I believe plus two legals, when I walk in with wig

and

Post by Shooter
gown, if only I could have used a camera, as they believed that I the
plaintiff was just a bloke

What is a bloke?

Arthur Entlich

2005-06-01 16:20:53 UTC

Can I "speak" to you privately regarding how you've set up your speech
recognition and what products and hardware you are using? I tried this
a few years ago and it wasn't quite there yet. I'd love to consider
going back to it, to save time, but I'd very much like to know how you
set yourself up and how much training was required to get the results
you do.

Art

Post by Shooter
Art,
Yes I think it would. The reason I used the description a "bloke" is
because I use speech recognition for all my user group replies so as spoken
it's printed. Perhaps in the past I have trained it for the word "bloke" I
suppose I should check what I say a little more but one becomes a little
lazy with 99% accuracy. I am a little unsure though if "regular guy" is a
term used in the UK. Perhaps in hindsight I could have used "regular Joe off
the street." Ah well, does it really matter as one poster stated, he could
not care less if I went to court of what I had for breakfast., we have
another saying, nothing so strange as people.

Post by Arthur Entlich
Wouldn't that be "English slang for an "regular guy""
Art.

Post by Shooter
English slang for person.

Post by Shooter
Ok I lost the claim but I got a lot of satisfaction when they were

refused

Post by Shooter
costs. But more important, imagine a fairly full court room filled

with

Post by Shooter
Epson people, four I believe plus two legals, when I walk in with wig

and

Post by Shooter
gown, if only I could have used a camera, as they believed that I the
plaintiff was just a bloke

What is a bloke?

Shooter

2005-06-03 00:04:55 UTC

Hi Art,

Sorry for the delay in replying. I use at this time Dragon Naturally
Speaking Preferred V8 along with a Plantronics DSP 100 head set. First let
me say it is no use using one of the cheaper headsets it needs to have DSP,
this helps to reduce background noise. Then it's just a matter of training,
the basic to get started is about five minutes and if mistakes occur there
are a number of other training software included in the program. Correction
of words in the program work quite well and is a matter of choosing the
correct word and just say Choose and it's corrected. The problem I have is
that I still have to read most of what I dictate but slowly I am getting out
of that habit.

Hope this brief emails helps.

Shooter.

Post by Arthur Entlich
Can I "speak" to you privately regarding how you've set up your speech
recognition and what products and hardware you are using? I tried this
a few years ago and it wasn't quite there yet. I'd love to consider
going back to it, to save time, but I'd very much like to know how you
set yourself up and how much training was required to get the results
you do.
Art

Post by Arthur Entlich
Wouldn't that be "English slang for an "regular guy""
Art.

Post by Shooter
English slang for person.

Post by Shooter
Ok I lost the claim but I got a lot of satisfaction when they were

refused

Post by Shooter
costs. But more important, imagine a fairly full court room filled

with

Post by Shooter
Epson people, four I believe plus two legals, when I walk in with wig

and

Post by Shooter
gown, if only I could have used a camera, as they believed that I the
plaintiff was just a bloke

What is a bloke?

Arthur Entlich

2005-06-03 15:18:34 UTC

Thanks for the rundown on your choices of software and headset.

I might try again. Dragon is the only one I haven't tried, and it is
probably the best. All the others were pretty much given to me, so I
wasn't complaining (until I tried them ;-))

Art

Post by Shooter
Hi Art,
Sorry for the delay in replying. I use at this time Dragon Naturally
Speaking Preferred V8 along with a Plantronics DSP 100 head set. First let
me say it is no use using one of the cheaper headsets it needs to have DSP,
this helps to reduce background noise. Then it's just a matter of training,
the basic to get started is about five minutes and if mistakes occur there
are a number of other training software included in the program. Correction
of words in the program work quite well and is a matter of choosing the
correct word and just say Choose and it's corrected. The problem I have is
that I still have to read most of what I dictate but slowly I am getting out
of that habit.
Hope this brief emails helps.
Shooter.

Post by Shooter
Art,
Yes I think it would. The reason I used the description a "bloke" is
because I use speech recognition for all my user group replies so as

spoken

Post by Shooter
it's printed. Perhaps in the past I have trained it for the word "bloke"

Post by Shooter
suppose I should check what I say a little more but one becomes a little
lazy with 99% accuracy. I am a little unsure though if "regular guy" is

Post by Shooter
term used in the UK. Perhaps in hindsight I could have used "regular Joe

off

Post by Shooter
the street." Ah well, does it really matter as one poster stated, he

could

Post by Shooter
not care less if I went to court of what I had for breakfast., we have
another saying, nothing so strange as people.

Post by Arthur Entlich
Wouldn't that be "English slang for an "regular guy""
Art.

Post by Shooter
English slang for person.

Post by Shooter
Ok I lost the claim but I got a lot of satisfaction when they were

refused

Post by Shooter
costs. But more important, imagine a fairly full court room filled

with

Post by Shooter
Epson people, four I believe plus two legals, when I walk in with

wig

Post by Shooter
and

Post by Shooter
gown, if only I could have used a camera, as they believed that I the
plaintiff was just a bloke

What is a bloke?

Hecate

2005-06-03 19:45:30 UTC

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:18:34 GMT, Arthur Entlich

Post by Arthur Entlich
Thanks for the rundown on your choices of software and headset.
I might try again. Dragon is the only one I haven't tried, and it is
probably the best. All the others were pretty much given to me, so I
wasn't complaining (until I tried them ;-))

Dragon is brilliant. The latest version seems as if it hardly
requires training though the amount of training it does require will
vary from person to person. As an aside I use a Sennheiser
mike/earpiece because I wanted one with dual padded headphones. It
works extremely well.

--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Arthur Entlich

2005-06-04 12:53:33 UTC

Thanks, it does sound like the technology has come of age, finally.

Good to hear.

I used to own stock in the company that bought Dragon, (L+H) in fact,
it's the reason I bought the company. But they were involved in fraud,
and indicted, and Dragon was the only valuable asset they had left and
it was sold off again (sad story ;-)). I've tried IBM (which was the
best of the bunch I have tested) L+H's own version (Voice Express), and
two others, whose names escape me, and even after weeks of practice the
errors were still not acceptable. Then again, back then I was running a
much slower computer and using the headsets that came with the software.

I've been told I have good diction, probably from the amount of public
speaking and traveling I have done, so it's not like the software had to
combat a strong dialect, or accent.

Anyway, I'll have to try the new Dragon (which version is that, BTW) and
dig up a good mike (I have some studio quality, somewhere) and try
again. Could save me a heck of a lot of time and typing.

Art

Post by Hecate
On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:18:34 GMT, Arthur Entlich

Dragon is brilliant. The latest version seems as if it hardly
requires training though the amount of training it does require will
vary from person to person. As an aside I use a Sennheiser
mike/earpiece because I wanted one with dual padded headphones. It
works extremely well.
--
Hecate - The Real One
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Hecate

2005-06-04 21:00:32 UTC

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:53:33 GMT, Arthur Entlich

Post by Arthur Entlich
Anyway, I'll have to try the new Dragon (which version is that, BTW) and
dig up a good mike (I have some studio quality, somewhere) and try
again. Could save me a heck of a lot of time and typing.

The version you want is Naturally Speaking Preferred. There is a Pro
version, but it's only really aimed at corporates.

As for the mike, I cannot emphasise enough that you need a headset
with a boom mike - freestanding mikes have a tendency to pick up
extraneous noise which really messes up your dictation or commands.
(How about turning the command "format the <pause>" into format C <g>)

Never happened as far as I know but you do get quite a few more
failures/corrections with a freestanding mike :)

--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Arthur Entlich

2005-06-06 14:16:01 UTC

OK, I've got numerous Headsets with boom mike on them with pop filters,
can see if any work well or if I have to purchase a better one.

Thanks again,

Art

Post by Hecate
On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:53:33 GMT, Arthur Entlich

The version you want is Naturally Speaking Preferred. There is a Pro
version, but it's only really aimed at corporates.
As for the mike, I cannot emphasise enough that you need a headset
with a boom mike - freestanding mikes have a tendency to pick up
extraneous noise which really messes up your dictation or commands.
(How about turning the command "format the <pause>" into format C <g>)
Never happened as far as I know but you do get quite a few more
failures/corrections with a freestanding mike :)
--
Hecate - The Real One
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Shooter

2005-06-06 14:44:22 UTC

Sets with pop filters may not be enough, I have found you need a mike with
DSP, no doubt you will ask what is that, it is a digitally enhanced noise
cancelling microphone, other mikes will work buy you will get errors in
dictation to text, the amount will vary, another problem with non DSP is
while the program is waiting for speech other sound can be translated to
text, so with say a loud computer fan you might keep getting the word "the
or it " or some other word, which means you have to correct what it's
written and while doing that it will write the words again and again. A mike
with DSP reduces that happening. As I have said in my email to you I can get
up to 99% accuracy. Another small pain is using commands, if you want a
capital letter in the middle of a sentence you need to say Caps On and then
Caps off, but you soon get used to doing this. This reply had three
corrections to be made while dictating, no doubt some smart arse will say my
percentage is wrong, ah well in a perfect world eh. The version of preferred
is V8.

Post by Arthur Entlich
OK, I've got numerous Headsets with boom mike on them with pop filters,
can see if any work well or if I have to purchase a better one.
Thanks again,
Art

Post by Hecate
On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 12:53:33 GMT, Arthur Entlich

The version you want is Naturally Speaking Preferred. There is a Pro
version, but it's only really aimed at corporates.
As for the mike, I cannot emphasise enough that you need a headset
with a boom mike - freestanding mikes have a tendency to pick up
extraneous noise which really messes up your dictation or commands.
(How about turning the command "format the <pause>" into format C <g>)
Never happened as far as I know but you do get quite a few more
failures/corrections with a freestanding mike :)
--
Hecate - The Real One
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Arthur Entlich

2005-06-07 11:07:17 UTC

Sounds interesting to pursue at this point considering the amount of
typing I'm finding myself doing. I have a number of headsets here, and
I will see if any have digital noise canceling circuits. I have one
here that claims to be DNCT (Direct Noise Canceling Technology) from
Cyber Acoustics, but maybe DNCT is just a fancy term for "the piece of
foam we wrap the mike in" ;-) It claims to be certified by L&H, Dragon
and IBM VIA Voice..

It states "rated as compatible hardware with Dragon Systems software
under their certification #1"

Art

Post by Shooter
Sets with pop filters may not be enough, I have found you need a mike with
DSP, no doubt you will ask what is that, it is a digitally enhanced noise
cancelling microphone, other mikes will work buy you will get errors in
dictation to text, the amount will vary, another problem with non DSP is
while the program is waiting for speech other sound can be translated to
text, so with say a loud computer fan you might keep getting the word "the
or it " or some other word, which means you have to correct what it's
written and while doing that it will write the words again and again. A mike
with DSP reduces that happening. As I have said in my email to you I can get
up to 99% accuracy. Another small pain is using commands, if you want a
capital letter in the middle of a sentence you need to say Caps On and then
Caps off, but you soon get used to doing this. This reply had three
corrections to be made while dictating, no doubt some smart arse will say my
percentage is wrong, ah well in a perfect world eh. The version of preferred
is V8.

Hecate

2005-05-29 23:43:55 UTC

On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:08:25 +0000 (UTC), "Shooter"

Post by Shooter
Now if you look at the paper recomennded by Epson for a 2100/2200 you will
see the machine and Epson only support semigloss. So I took them to court
and lost my claim on those two points, Ink and paper. Ok I am lucky as I was
able to conduct my own litigation, but it proves a point that Epson in the
UK do not support warranty claims if you use third party ink, and that in
days when a 2100 cost over £500 not a cheapie machine but made no difference
I lost.

That's interesting because I have a quote in a photography magazine
from about 5/6 months ago in which an Epson spokesperson specifically
states "the use of Third Party Inks does NOT (my emphasis) invalidate
your warranty". Perhaps you could give me a link (in email) to where
I could find your case online so I can study it.

Thanks,

--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

measekite

2005-05-30 01:02:17 UTC

Post by Hecate
On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:08:25 +0000 (UTC), "Shooter"

It does not invalidate the Epson warranty unless Epson proves that the
use of the particular 3rd party ink used was the problem that caused the
printer to work improperly.

Post by Hecate
Perhaps you could give me a link (in email) to where
I could find your case online so I can study it.
Thanks,
--
Hecate - The Real One
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Shooter

2005-05-30 11:43:54 UTC

Post by Hecate
On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:08:25 +0000 (UTC), "Shooter"

It does not invalidate the Epson warranty unless Epson proves that the
use of the particular 3rd party ink used was the problem that caused the
printer to work improperly.

Sorry a UK court thought different.

Hecate

2005-05-30 23:23:41 UTC

On Mon, 30 May 2005 11:43:54 +0000 (UTC), "Shooter"

Post by Hecate
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Sorry a UK court thought different.

They obviously didn't have the quote from the Epson spokesperson in
front of them.

--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Shooter

2005-05-31 11:13:55 UTC

That would be hearsay. Where would the proof be.

Post by Hecate
On Mon, 30 May 2005 11:43:54 +0000 (UTC), "Shooter"

Post by Hecate
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Sorry a UK court thought different.

They obviously didn't have the quote from the Epson spokesperson in
front of them.
--
Hecate - The Real One
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Hecate

2005-05-31 23:01:03 UTC

On Tue, 31 May 2005 11:13:55 +0000 (UTC), "Shooter"

Post by Shooter
That would be hearsay. Where would the proof be.

In print in the magazine as I mentioned before.

--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

SLLD

2005-05-28 21:51:33 UTC

I wonder when my C84 will go out I have been using it for almost 2 years and
have printed about 35 pamplets per week.
Still works great .. BTW I use printpal.com ink
I'm getting an allinone cx6600 for the convience of a scanner and all built
in
It is working ok now . I will probably use it some since I now know my epaon
is nearing its end of life ??
Printpal carts are very reasonable in price. no I work for no one
Also I only paid about $68 for my C84 and $6.95 for the carts.
Not the best but not too bad.
There is a software chip reseter on the web that works great for me when the
ink gets low.
When I buy another printer it will be an Epson...
To each his own..

Davy

2005-05-28 23:33:56 UTC

Impmon

Does it have to be paper towels (doubt they would last long), was
gonna suggest some sort of container, but guess you'd be limited for
space. Pretty sure you can get high absorbancy sponge what you can
cut down to size.

Just an idea I had.
Davy

Impmon

2005-05-29 05:08:41 UTC

On 28 May 2005 19:33:56 -0400,

Post by Davy
Does it have to be paper towels (doubt they would last long), was
gonna suggest some sort of container, but guess you'd be limited for
space. Pretty sure you can get high absorbancy sponge what you can
cut down to size.

I don't know, I didn't plan on using the old printer that much longer
so I used paper towels as they were around. The old ink waste pad
(from Canon printer) were kind of like very thick paper towel, about
half inch thick and fairly soft. I'd think anything that can absorb
ink and hold them so it won't leak if you turned printer upside down
can work in place of the old ink waste pad.

FWIW the ink waste pad on the bottom of 4200 (probably same with other
4000 series) were almost the width of the printer and varied from one
inch to 3 inch deep to fit the irregular shape of the tank. When I
removed mine, nearly all the ink were on the right side, the left half
looked clean and unused so I would think it was too big for its need.

--
When you hear the toilet flush, and hear the words "uh oh", it's already
too late. - by anonymous Mother in Austin, TX
To reply, replace digi.mon with phreaker.net

XYZ ABC

2005-05-29 13:46:50 UTC

Post by Impmon
FWIW the ink waste pad on the bottom of 4200 (probably same with other
4000 series) were almost the width of the printer and varied from one
inch to 3 inch deep to fit the irregular shape of the tank. When I
removed mine, nearly all the ink were on the right side, the left half
looked clean and unused so I would think it was too big for its need.
--

Can the pad be cleaned and reused?

Davy

2005-05-29 12:33:57 UTC

Trying rack my brain cells eer', if it was me I would have put those
kictchen towels in a plastic bag, alot easier to handle, the ends
could even be sealed up. I just scrapped a C62 and the waste looked
like a felt material as oppsed to a sponge material we know.

If thats all the matter then its well worth doing some experiments
with various materials you could perhaps use any other fluid than
ink.

Was trying to give some ideas thats all, I don't know how much these
things are to buy, as you know anything will do as long as it does
the job. even a glass tube with a stopper and the towel rolled up
inside, better than inky fingers.

Davy

Arthur Entlich

2005-05-29 13:22:02 UTC

Hi Lyn,

Most of the things you report are true. I would like to correct a few
of them, however.

A number of the inkjet companies have chips to try to prevent refilling
of the ink cartridges. With the Epsons, you can purchase a chip
resetter for under $10 that resets the cartridge chip each time you
refill. The newer cartridges are more difficult to refill and require
good instructions to do so correctly, but many people do so. You can
also purchase 3rd party ink cartridges and for a heavy uses sometimes a
continuos inking system is beneficial.

All inkjet printers have waste ink pads which get used up with cleaning
the heads. The reason for the warning is because ink can start
leaking from them if they become overfilled. Several companies'
products shut the printer down if this amount of ink is reached. I
agree that there should be an early warning and the printer shouldn't
stop dead as it does when it reaches that point.

To the best of my knowledge, the EEPROM chip in the C62 Epson printer is
reprogrammable when/if you were to get the waste ink pads replaced.
Older Epson printers could be reset with some front panel buttons, now
you need to have a specialized software used.

I agree they charge too much for this and a design allowing for
self-service is fairer, and should have incorporated.

The C62 is a light duty printer and one of the cheapest of it's kind on
the market. It had a smaller set of waste ink pads than some and
therefore they get used up sooner during cleaning and on/off cycling.

If you use it as regularly as you claim, it would appear to be used in a
commercial setting, which is not what it is designed for, but even if
you did, you must have gotten more than your money back in terms of the
original cost.

All inkjet printers use up ink to clean their heads and all have to do
something with that ink. Each printer manufacturer has pluses and
minuses. You will not find an inkjet printer that will resolve each
issues you discuss.

Art

measekite

2005-05-29 15:19:18 UTC

Post by Arthur Entlich
Hi Lyn,
Most of the things you report are true. I would like to correct a few
of them, however.
A number of the inkjet companies have chips to try to prevent
refilling of the ink cartridges.

Unfortunately, they have a legal and moral right to protect their
investment and make as much money as they can. And they do charge what
the traffic will bear.

Post by Arthur Entlich
With the Epsons, you can purchase a chip resetter for under $10 that
resets the cartridge chip each time you refill. The newer cartridges
are more difficult to refill and require good instructions to do so
correctly, but many people do so. You can also purchase 3rd party ink
cartridges and for a heavy uses sometimes a continuos inking system is
beneficial.
All inkjet printers have waste ink pads which get used up with
cleaning the heads. The reason for the warning is because ink can
start leaking from them if they become overfilled. Several companies'
products shut the printer down if this amount of ink is reached. I
agree that there should be an early warning and the printer shouldn't
stop dead as it does when it reaches that point.
To the best of my knowledge, the EEPROM chip in the C62 Epson printer
is reprogrammable when/if you were to get the waste ink pads replaced.
Older Epson printers could be reset with some front panel buttons, now
you need to have a specialized software used.
I agree they charge too much for this and a design allowing for
self-service is fairer, and should have incorporated.
The C62 is a light duty printer and one of the cheapest of it's kind
on the market. It had a smaller set of waste ink pads than some and
therefore they get used up sooner during cleaning and on/off cycling.
If you use it as regularly as you claim, it would appear to be used in
a commercial setting, which is not what it is designed for, but even
if you did, you must have gotten more than your money back in terms of
the original cost.
All inkjet printers use up ink to clean their heads and all have to do
something with that ink.

Epson uses more ink than their competitors and that is from Epson.

Post by Arthur Entlich
Each printer manufacturer has pluses and minuses. You will not find
an inkjet printer that will resolve each issues you discuss.
Art

Post by Lyn Buchanan
This might be helpful to anyone on the list who is thinking about buying new
equipment: Please spread this to other lists, as well, in the hopes that it
will help others.
I purchased an Epson C62 printer last year, which was a good
printer. I had
no complaints other than the fact that they build a chip into their ink
cartridges so you can't refill them. For most people, this is not a
problem, but I do a LOT of printing, and refilling is the only way to go.
$3 for new ink is much better than $50. The cartridge chip is something
they don't tell you about when you buy the printer, nor is there anything
about it in the manual, or on their web site. You only learn about it the
hard way - after you've already bought the machine.
Yesterday, an error message popped up and told me that "some parts of the
printer are at the end of their life cycle", and that I should take the
printer to be repaired. There is absolutely nothing in the manual about
this, so I searched the internet and found out that there is also a chip
inside the printer which counts the number of times you clean the ink
nozzles, and then it figures that the waste ink pad is dirty, so it blocks
you from using your printer at all any more until you get a new pad.
This
is several hundred cleanings, so for most people, it isn't an issue, but for
people like me, who use their printer a lot, it just became a very big
issue.
The average user will take the machine to the repair shop and be faced with
a bill of at least $80 to have an ink pad changed and have the chip reset.
HOWEVER, guess what else I learned the hard way... the Epson C62's chip
can't be reset. My only resort is to buy a new machine. It is the same for
several other models, but there is no way for you to find out ahead of time
whether the model you are buying is one of them. For these models, you
evidently have to have the whole motherboard changed, at a cost of another
$100 or so, or buy another machine.... which is what this whole situation
was designed for making you do.
I found out that all Epson printers are designed to let you clean your print
nozzles just so many times, and then you can't use the machine any more.
This is not in their manuals, advertising, help files, etc. No one will
tell you this before you buy the machine. Instead of a simple warning and a
pull-out drawer where you can change the pad yourself, you are left with a
machine which is mechanically fine, but which Epson has intentionally
designed to be totally unusable unless you go out and pay a huge repair bill
or simply buy a new one.
And I thought that the cartridge chip was an underhanded thing to do to
their customers!!!
Bottom line - if you are looking for a printer that you will use a lot -
under no circumstances should you buy an Epson. Epson does not have your
best interests at heart, and they have designed their machines to make you
pay all kinds of hidden costs. I'm sure that there are other tricky traps
that I haven't uncovered, and won't - because when I go out today to buy a
new printer - it won't be an Epson.
That being their company's policy, I would not buy any of their other
products, either.
I hope that this saves someone some money and equipment headaches.
Please
send this out to as many lists as you can, in the hopes that it will help
others, as well.

Scott Reeve

2005-05-29 16:42:05 UTC

Just curious - what ink refill system do you use/recommend.
I've got an Epson R200.

Post by Lyn Buchanan
This might be helpful to anyone on the list who is thinking about buying new
equipment: Please spread this to other lists, as well, in the hopes that it
will help others.

Davy

2005-05-29 21:34:24 UTC

These are contractor's, 'as long as they get paid" is the word. I
understand
that they are alloted so many xchange units, even for the simplist
fault they could kick one into touch and hand out a replacement.

If Epson found out he was servicing printers under warrenty what had
other inks in, they would'nt be too pleased it really does depend "on
the guy in the shop" as to speak.

I do believe the shop I got my exchanged unit from was a 'contractor'
.

Davy

Ivor Floppy

2005-05-29 21:43:59 UTC

Post by Davy
These are contractor's, 'as long as they get paid" is the word. I
understand
that they are alloted so many xchange units, even for the simplist
fault they could kick one into touch and hand out a replacement.
If Epson found out he was servicing printers under warrenty what had
other inks in, they would'nt be too pleased it really does depend "on
the guy in the shop" as to speak.

Maybe not pleased, but unless they can *prove* that the 3rd party ink's
caused the fault; they can't get out of honouring the warrantee.

Post by Davy
I do believe the shop I got my exchanged unit from was a 'contractor'
.
Davy

Davy

2005-05-29 22:34:16 UTC

Tony
All waste pad counters can be reset with Epsons, to do this you put
the printer in service mode then run a programme for the particular
model which displays the memory in the 'on board' ram in the cpu, to
reset you just alter the 'Hex' code on the relevant address line.

Maybe what as been referred to mistakenly is the ability to either
reset this via the 'push buttons, or simply via 'a one stop fix' a
downloaded programme that addresses the matter without having to go
into service mode and ignoring all other perameters that may be
listed in the printers cpu memory.

Davy

Davy

2005-05-30 00:33:46 UTC

Post by Ivor Floppy
Maybe not pleased, but unless they can *prove* that the 3rd party

ink's

Post by Ivor Floppy
caused the fault; they can't get out of honouring the warrantee.
Davy Say's
Certainly see the point you made and very valid.
I had my printer xchanged and when the xchanged one went exactly the

same way in about the same time Epson did not want to know, I had not
had either printer for 12 months, they did'nt want to know since the
warrenty had run out on the first one.

Post by Ivor Floppy
I had not a leg to stand on since they did not return my

documents.

Ivor Floppy

2005-05-30 00:52:11 UTC

Post by Davy

Post by Ivor Floppy
Maybe not pleased, but unless they can *prove* that the 3rd party

ink's

same way in about the same time Epson did not want to know, I had not
had either printer for 12 months, they did'nt want to know since the
warrenty had run out on the first one.

That's how warrantee's work - if you get something replaced during the
warrantee period; you don't start a whole new warrantee.
The warrantee (on the replaced printer) expires when the warrantee from the
purchase of the *first* printer expires.

If your really really lucky, the manufacturer may extend the warrantee on
the replacement, but that's very much an exception.

Post by Davy

Post by Ivor Floppy
I had not a leg to stand on since they did not return my

documents.

measekite

2005-05-30 01:05:39 UTC

We all know that Epson USA is better than the anals at Epson UK. I
guess UK means unkaring. :-)

Post by Davy

Post by Ivor Floppy
Maybe not pleased, but unless they can *prove* that the 3rd party

ink's

same way in about the same time Epson did not want to know, I had not
had either printer for 12 months, they did'nt want to know since the
warrenty had run out on the first one.

Post by Ivor Floppy
I had not a leg to stand on since they did not return my

documents.

Ivor Floppy

2005-05-30 01:22:52 UTC

We all know that Epson USA is better than the anals at Epson UK. I guess
UK means unkaring. :-)

You just know how to handle them :)

Unfortunately, here in the UK the attitude of most large corporate is "the
customer is wrong". But if you know your rights you can usually get what you
want.
(that's assuming you have the patience to go through the 25+ stages of
telephone menu system to actually get to talk to somebody, and then assuming
that person isn't in India and can understand your accent (and you can
understand theirs), and assuming that you can afford the phone bill you'll
get when the "technician" takes you through a 10 stage diagnostic process
(usually involving rebooting, uninstalling drivers, rebooting, downloading
and reinstalling drivers, rebooting, running printer self-test diagnostics,
waiting 10 minutes for his computer system to recognise the serial number
you gave them, waiting another 10 minutes for the operator to talk to their
supervisor.. rebooting again) - all at £1.00 a minute.. and then assuming
the courier service(s) don't lose the printer when you mail it back to them
(the nearest Epson authorised dealer being either at least 75 miles away; or
non-existent).

It's all part of the charm of living in the UK.

:)

Hecate

2005-05-30 23:27:06 UTC

Post by Ivor Floppy

We all know that Epson USA is better than the anals at Epson UK. I guess
UK means unkaring. :-)

You just know how to handle them :)
Unfortunately, here in the UK the attitude of most large corporate is "the
customer is wrong". But if you know your rights you can usually get what you
want.
(that's assuming you have the patience to go through the 25+ stages of
telephone menu system to actually get to talk to somebody, and then assuming
that person isn't in India and can understand your accent (and you can
understand theirs), and assuming that you can afford the phone bill you'll
get when the "technician" takes you through a 10 stage diagnostic process
(usually involving rebooting, uninstalling drivers, rebooting, downloading
and reinstalling drivers, rebooting, running printer self-test diagnostics,
waiting 10 minutes for his computer system to recognise the serial number
you gave them, waiting another 10 minutes for the operator to talk to their
supervisor.. rebooting again) - all at £1.00 a minute.. and then assuming
the courier service(s) don't lose the printer when you mail it back to them
(the nearest Epson authorised dealer being either at least 75 miles away; or
non-existent).
It's all part of the charm of living in the UK.

You ought to try the Which Book of Results Letters. Generally I find
the (threat of) use of the Small Claims Court accompanied by the
mention of reporting the case to the press tends to make corporate's
see differently (they can't use high-powered lawyers in the Small
Claims Court <g> and they hate bad publicity <g>).

--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Shooter

2005-05-31 11:31:23 UTC

Post by Hecate

Post by Ivor Floppy

We all know that Epson USA is better than the anals at Epson UK. I guess
UK means unkaring. :-)

You just know how to handle them :)
Unfortunately, here in the UK the attitude of most large corporate is "the
customer is wrong". But if you know your rights you can usually get what you
want.
(that's assuming you have the patience to go through the 25+ stages of
telephone menu system to actually get to talk to somebody, and then assuming
that person isn't in India and can understand your accent (and you can
understand theirs), and assuming that you can afford the phone bill you'll
get when the "technician" takes you through a 10 stage diagnostic process
(usually involving rebooting, uninstalling drivers, rebooting, downloading
and reinstalling drivers, rebooting, running printer self-test diagnostics,
waiting 10 minutes for his computer system to recognise the serial number
you gave them, waiting another 10 minutes for the operator to talk to their
supervisor.. rebooting again) - all at £1.00 a minute.. and then assuming
the courier service(s) don't lose the printer when you mail it back to them
(the nearest Epson authorised dealer being either at least 75 miles away; or
non-existent).
It's all part of the charm of living in the UK.

You ought to try the Which Book of Results Letters. Generally I find
the (threat of) use of the Small Claims Court accompanied by the
mention of reporting the case to the press tends to make corporate's
see differently (they can't use high-powered lawyers in the Small
Claims Court <g> and they hate bad publicity <g>).
--
Hecate - The Real One
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Is that Beano or Mickey Mouse you are referring to, of course they can use
high powered lawyers, and there is no case reporting to the press in the
County Court in England and Wales but there is in Scotland. In the UK the
Plaintiff would have to ask for the press to be present and I think any CC
judge if asked would frown at that. So all you have is after reporting and
who the hell is going to give space to a £500 claim apart from computer
mags. The only advantage is that the Defendant if they loose have a
judgement against them and have to pay up and in the case of a large company
that has little meaning.

Hecate

2005-05-31 23:02:07 UTC

On Tue, 31 May 2005 11:31:23 +0000 (UTC), "Shooter"

Post by Shooter
Is that Beano or Mickey Mouse you are referring to, of course they can use
high powered lawyers, and there is no case reporting to the press in the
County Court in England and Wales but there is in Scotland. In the UK the
Plaintiff would have to ask for the press to be present and I think any CC
judge if asked would frown at that. So all you have is after reporting and
who the hell is going to give space to a £500 claim apart from computer
mags. The only advantage is that the Defendant if they loose have a
judgement against them and have to pay up and in the case of a large company
that has little meaning.

I take it you are a lawyer?

--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Davy

2005-05-30 12:33:24 UTC

Post by Ivor Floppy
Unfortunately, here in the UK the attitude of most large corporate

is "the

Post by Ivor Floppy
customer is wrong". But if you know your rights you can usually get

what you

Post by Ivor Floppy
want.
Davy say's
That is very true, you only need to speak to 'the pen pushers' at

the help desk', the attitude is we know everything and thats it.

Post by Ivor Floppy
The conversation goes,
"Well, I bought this printer 6 months ago, and it won't print",

.."Are the ink cartridges full"?...."Yes, I bought them yesterday",
it goes on and on

Post by Ivor Floppy
"What you need to do is to do a cleaning cycle",.... "Yes, I have

tried",

Post by Ivor Floppy
"trying going in to the printer driver and do a nozzle clean",

"yes I had to do that to do the nozzle clean",......"Oh, I see, just
a moment I will put you on to technical".

Post by Ivor Floppy
So Technical comes on and the darn routine is repeated until I have

no more stupid cloggin' ink. "What you must never do is to do more
than 6 nozzles cleans in one go as this damages the heads", (I have
only their word).

Post by Ivor Floppy
"Oh, I see, well er, I have already done 2 before they put me

through to you and you want me to do more, and oh by the way, why is
this not mentioned in the manual"... "Oh, er just try it once
again"?

Post by Ivor Floppy
It goes on and on and on and can easily take over twenty minutes, it

really does depend on

Post by Ivor Floppy
the guy in the shop.....the person you speak to.....and the

knowledge that person is capable of absorbing on the phone.

Post by Ivor Floppy
Seiko Epson ought get their finger out and sort Epson UK out if that

is the case, the service that I received was just diabolical.

Post by Ivor Floppy
Their attitude should have been Oh, dear we can't have this, it's

not the printers they are concerned about but their ink tanks.

Post by Ivor Floppy
Bet ya they tryna come up with non refillable tank.... That can't be

drilled or screwed.... Lol...!

Free Printer Guy

2005-05-31 14:19:14 UTC