Discussion:
Epson admits that using their tanks will void your warranty!
(too old to reply)
Miss Perspicacia Tick
2005-05-10 15:32:46 UTC
Permalink
Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead is
dead.

Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
sets of tanks cleaning
Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
Me: - OEM
Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges will
void your warranty.

By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer, but
an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...

Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.

I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one using
the initials OEM. I couldn't.

Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
anything other than genuine Epson?
Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
Epson: - /silence/
Me: - Well?
Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
Epson: - No they're OEM
Me: - No, they're third-party

He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
--
In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
Rôgêr
2005-05-10 15:45:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miss Perspicacia Tick
Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead is
dead.
Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
sets of tanks cleaning
Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
Me: - OEM
Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges will
void your warranty.
By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer, but
an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one using
the initials OEM. I couldn't.
Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
anything other than genuine Epson?
Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
Epson: - /silence/
Me: - Well?
Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
Epson: - No they're OEM
Me: - No, they're third-party
He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
OEM does *not* signify that it has to be the company that made the
printer. The Original isn't a reference to the printer, it's a reference
to who made the cartridge. So in this case, even though the tech may
have been somewhat dense, they were correct. The opposite of OEM is VAR
or value added reseller. A VAR could take a JetTec cartridge and put
Bud's Ink brand on it and resell it.
measekite
2005-05-10 17:16:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rôgêr
Post by Miss Perspicacia Tick
Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the
printhead is dead.
Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've
wasted two sets of tanks cleaning
Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
Me: - OEM
Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM
cartridges will void your warranty.
By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my
printer, but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was
too much...
Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
anything other than genuine Epson?
Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
Epson: - /silence/
Me: - Well?
Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
Epson: - No they're OEM
Me: - No, they're third-party
He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them
tomorrow, and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning
of OEM.
OEM does *not* signify that it has to be the company that made the
printer. The Original isn't a reference to the printer, it's a
reference to who made the cartridge. So in this case, even though the
tech may have been somewhat dense, they were correct. The opposite of
OEM is VAR or value added reseller. A VAR could take a JetTec
cartridge and put Bud's Ink brand on it and resell it.
In this case it is a VSR a Value Subtracted Reseller.
Michael Doherty
2005-05-10 16:04:51 UTC
Permalink
My WindowsXP Pro is OEM.

That means that it is a genuine Microsoft product that does not include
Microsoft support. It is intended to be distributed by Original Equipment
Manufacturers and is not for sale to the general public. Support for this
product is the responsibility of the supplier.

I would expect that this is the context of the phrase 'OEM' taken by the
Epson tech.

So you could argue that the Cartridges that were supplied with the printer
were OEM since they were supplied by the Original Equipment Manufacturer (in
this case Epson) and, therefore, according to the Epson Tech, invalidated
your warranty the first time you used the printer.

I would agree that jettec is a third party manufacturer and not OEM. They do
not make Epson Printers or Epson Cartridges. They do make Epson Compatible
Cartridges.
--
Mick Doherty
http://dotnetrix.co.uk/nothing.html
Post by Miss Perspicacia Tick
Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
is dead.
Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
sets of tanks cleaning
Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
Me: - OEM
Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
will void your warranty.
By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
anything other than genuine Epson?
Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
Epson: - /silence/
Me: - Well?
Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
Epson: - No they're OEM
Me: - No, they're third-party
He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
--
In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
pcbutts1
2005-05-10 16:56:55 UTC
Permalink
You guys are just as dense as that Epson tech. If you bought a brand new
Epson printer it is going to come with an Epson ink cartridge not a Jettec
or anybody else's.
--
The best live web video on the internet http://www.seedsv.com/webdemo.htm
Sharpvision simply the best http://www.seedsv.com



"Michael Doherty"
Post by Michael Doherty
My WindowsXP Pro is OEM.
That means that it is a genuine Microsoft product that does not include
Microsoft support. It is intended to be distributed by Original Equipment
Manufacturers and is not for sale to the general public. Support for this
product is the responsibility of the supplier.
I would expect that this is the context of the phrase 'OEM' taken by the
Epson tech.
So you could argue that the Cartridges that were supplied with the printer
were OEM since they were supplied by the Original Equipment Manufacturer
(in this case Epson) and, therefore, according to the Epson Tech,
invalidated your warranty the first time you used the printer.
I would agree that jettec is a third party manufacturer and not OEM. They
do not make Epson Printers or Epson Cartridges. They do make Epson
Compatible Cartridges.
--
Mick Doherty
http://dotnetrix.co.uk/nothing.html
Post by Miss Perspicacia Tick
Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
is dead.
Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted
two sets of tanks cleaning
Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
Me: - OEM
Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
will void your warranty.
By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
anything other than genuine Epson?
Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
Epson: - /silence/
Me: - Well?
Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
Epson: - No they're OEM
Me: - No, they're third-party
He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
--
In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
Keme
2005-05-10 17:57:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by pcbutts1
You guys are just as dense as that Epson tech. If you bought a brand new
Epson printer it is going to come with an Epson ink cartridge not a Jettec
or anybody else's.
The response was to a hypothetical situation where Epson trusted a third
party supplier, and delivered their cartridges instead of their own with
the printers. Those cartridges would fall into the category "OEM"
because they're supplied by the manufacturer, the de facto "OEM", as it
were.
George E. Cawthon
2005-05-10 18:12:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by pcbutts1
You guys are just as dense as that Epson tech. If you bought a brand new
Epson printer it is going to come with an Epson ink cartridge not a Jettec
or anybody else's.
I agree. Somebody can't understand English.
Original Equipment Manufacture means that it is
what was used in the new item. It doesn't make
any difference if Epson contracted the tanks or
any other part out to other companies, it is what
was in the new item.

The OP error was in getting fancy and saying OEM.
She should have just said Epson tanks.
Michael Doherty
2005-05-11 14:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Let's explore the term OEM a little more shall we.

I have been building and upgrading my own PC's for several years now.
Whenever I buy a new component I always try to buy an OEM model. So exactly
what is it that I get? It is not a third party or compatible product, but a
component built by an original equipment manufacturer, and then sold on via
a third party distributor.
Usually the component comes in plain packaging with no manual or "free
software", other than that it is exactly the same product as the genuine
resale product.

I have never purchased an OEM product that was made by a third party
manufacturer.

I'll agree that in a lot of cases the Brand name is not the manufacturer,
but in all cases that I have ever come accross, an OEM product is the same
product as the genuine product, but packaged for bulk buy rather than
resale.
--
Mick Doherty
http://dotnetrix.co.uk/nothing.html
Post by pcbutts1
You guys are just as dense as that Epson tech. If you bought a brand new
Epson printer it is going to come with an Epson ink cartridge not a
Jettec or anybody else's.
I agree. Somebody can't understand English. Original Equipment
Manufacture means that it is what was used in the new item. It doesn't
make any difference if Epson contracted the tanks or any other part out to
other companies, it is what was in the new item.
The OP error was in getting fancy and saying OEM. She should have just
said Epson tanks.
measekite
2005-05-10 17:18:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Doherty
My WindowsXP Pro is OEM.
That means that it is a genuine Microsoft product that does not include
Microsoft support. It is intended to be distributed by Original Equipment
Manufacturers and is not for sale to the general public. Support for this
product is the responsibility of the supplier.
I would expect that this is the context of the phrase 'OEM' taken by the
Epson tech.
So you could argue that the Cartridges that were supplied with the printer
were OEM since they were supplied by the Original Equipment Manufacturer (in
this case Epson) and, therefore, according to the Epson Tech, invalidated
your warranty the first time you used the printer.
I would agree that jettec is a third party manufacturer and not OEM. They do
not make Epson Printers or Epson Cartridges. They do make Epson Compatible
Cartridges.
They probably do not mfg anything. They most likely are a repacker and
relabeler.
Stickems.
2005-05-10 17:26:12 UTC
Permalink
Who made the cartridges that you have been using?


"Miss Perspicacia Tick" <***@test.com> wrote in message news:Fu4ge.34540$***@fe06.highwinds-media.phx...
| Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
is
| dead.
|
| Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
| Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
| sets of tanks cleaning
| Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
| Me: - OEM
| Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
will
| void your warranty.
|
| By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
but
| an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
|
| Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
| Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
|
| I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
using
| the initials OEM. I couldn't.
|
| Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
| anything other than genuine Epson?
| Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
| Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
| Epson: - /silence/
| Me: - Well?
| Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
| Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
| Epson: - No they're OEM
| Me: - No, they're third-party
|
| He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
| anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
| and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| --
| In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
|
|
Brian G
2005-05-10 17:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miss Perspicacia Tick
Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the
printhead is dead.
Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've
wasted two sets of tanks cleaning
Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
Me: - OEM
Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM
cartridges will void your warranty.
By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my
printer, but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was
too much...
Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
anything other than genuine Epson?
Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
Epson: - /silence/
Me: - Well?
Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
Epson: - No they're OEM
Me: - No, they're third-party
He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them
tomorrow, and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning
of OEM.
See this link for a defination of OEM

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/O/OEM.html

Brian G
Davy
2005-05-10 17:29:24 UTC
Permalink
Read Woe of Epson C62 lower down the listings.

I had a C62 it went faulty during warrenty, they exchanged it and
guess what - that went the same way in about the same amount of time
with the same symptoms

When I got the xchanged unit I thought I would get a new warrenty - NO
no said Epson the warrenty starts from the day of purchase they
said...!

So No more Epsons for me.

I wonder if your's went the same way...... Did it want a nozzle clean,
then more and more nozzle cleans as time went by, I bet like me you
wasted tons of ink.

Some folks say you shouldn't use third party inks - BUT I DIDN't,
whilst under warrenty I ensured I printed regularly and used GENUINE
INKS and from my write up you will find I still had 'clogged heads'
So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
inks - I've prove it

I imagine your problem like mine, got worse over time - be interested
to know out of curiousity.

Davy
measekite
2005-05-10 20:20:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davy
Read Woe of Epson C62 lower down the listings.
I had a C62 it went faulty during warrenty, they exchanged it and
guess what - that went the same way in about the same amount of time
with the same symptoms
When I got the xchanged unit I thought I would get a new warrenty - NO
no said Epson the warrenty starts from the day of purchase they
said...!
So No more Epsons for me.
I wonder if your's went the same way...... Did it want a nozzle clean,
then more and more nozzle cleans as time went by, I bet like me you
wasted tons of ink.
I understand that this model was not up to snuff. The R series of
printer have improved but I hear they are ink guzzlers. Most of the
people who have clog problems either use 3rd party inks and/or have a
light print load.
Post by Davy
Some folks say you shouldn't use third party inks - BUT I DIDN't,
whilst under warrenty I ensured I printed regularly and used GENUINE
INKS and from my write up you will find I still had 'clogged heads'
So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
inks - I've prove it
I imagine your problem like mine, got worse over time - be interested
to know out of curiousity.
Davy
Caitlin
2005-05-10 21:30:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davy
Read Woe of Epson C62 lower down the listings.
I had a C62 it went faulty during warrenty, they exchanged it and
guess what - that went the same way in about the same amount of time
with the same symptoms
When I got the xchanged unit I thought I would get a new warrenty - NO
no said Epson the warrenty starts from the day of purchase they
said...!
So No more Epsons for me.
Name a manufacturer that does supply a full new warranty with replacement
equipment? As far as I know none of them do.
Jon O'Brien
2005-05-11 00:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davy
So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
inks - I've prove it
You've proved that your C62s clogged, which is not the same thing.

For the Nth time: many people have used Epson inkjet printers for years
without having more than the occasional blockage which is easily cleared
by running a head cleaning cycle. I'm one of them.

Jon.
Arthur Entlich
2005-05-11 18:02:02 UTC
Permalink
One more thing that may explain part of this disagreement.

Epson has admitted there has been a large problem with counterfeit ink
cartridges that they themselves cannot detect from the outSide box are
not their own.

If Epson can't tell without opening the cartridge or examining the ink,
how can anyone be positive they have an Epson cartridge? Any smaller
store that buys through a jobber, my have non-epson "Epson" cartridges.


Art
Post by Jon O'Brien
Post by Davy
So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
inks - I've prove it
You've proved that your C62s clogged, which is not the same thing.
For the Nth time: many people have used Epson inkjet printers for years
without having more than the occasional blockage which is easily cleared
by running a head cleaning cycle. I'm one of them.
Jon.
Arthur Entlich
2005-05-11 17:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Oh, now I understand what you are complaining about Davy.

You think that when you get a warranty replacement item, the warranty
starts all over again? Well, let me see, you buy a new car, and the
computer in it fails at 20,000 miles into your second year. Do you
think the whole car now starts with a new warranty as if it was a new
car? Or that, the computer in the car now gets a new 36 month 40,000
mile warranty?

Epson, rather than repairing your printer, which might takes weeks to
do, and does an over the counter exchange. Often it is someone else's
printer that was repaired which you will get. Just like your printer
should have been repaired and provided to someone else, rather than
tossed in the bin.

So, in effect, they fixed "something" since the whole printer wasn't
dysfunctional, only one or a few parts. Just like the car, your printer
continues to have the remainder of your warranty, usually if your
printer is almost out of warranty and it is repaired they give a 90 day
warranty even if the printer is out of warranty.

VERY few companies provide a new warranty when they repair or replace a
product. It is a continuation of your previous warranty.

Have you not dealt with warranty services before?


Art
Post by Davy
Read Woe of Epson C62 lower down the listings.
I had a C62 it went faulty during warrenty, they exchanged it and
guess what - that went the same way in about the same amount of time
with the same symptoms
When I got the xchanged unit I thought I would get a new warrenty - NO
no said Epson the warrenty starts from the day of purchase they
said...!
So No more Epsons for me.
I wonder if your's went the same way...... Did it want a nozzle clean,
then more and more nozzle cleans as time went by, I bet like me you
wasted tons of ink.
Some folks say you shouldn't use third party inks - BUT I DIDN't,
whilst under warrenty I ensured I printed regularly and used GENUINE
INKS and from my write up you will find I still had 'clogged heads'
So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
inks - I've prove it
I imagine your problem like mine, got worse over time - be interested
to know out of curiousity.
Davy
Arthur Entlich
2005-05-13 15:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Davy,

You are certainly entitled to your anger and frustration with Epson
products based upon your experience with them. It seems the Epson UK
division you dealt with was less that fair or efficient.

However, I will point out (once again, for the sake of fairness) that
there is hardly ANY company that, when replacing the product under
warranty, starts the warranty fresh again.

A few companies occasionally do this as a good will gesture, but it's
very rare. Items that come with lifetime warranties do it, because the
warranty is supposedly for the lifetime of the owner or potential useful
life of the product.

Almost every guarantee or warranty I have read states that should the
product be replaced or repaired under warranty that the product will
have the remainder of the warranty from the original purchase date or
something like 90 days, which ever is longer.

Did you bother to read the warranty that came with your printer? What
did it say?

Art
Post by Davy
Read Woe of Epson C62 lower down the listings.
I had a C62 it went faulty during warrenty, they exchanged it and
guess what - that went the same way in about the same amount of time
with the same symptoms
When I got the xchanged unit I thought I would get a new warrenty - NO
no said Epson the warrenty starts from the day of purchase they
said...!
So No more Epsons for me.
I wonder if your's went the same way...... Did it want a nozzle clean,
then more and more nozzle cleans as time went by, I bet like me you
wasted tons of ink.
Some folks say you shouldn't use third party inks - BUT I DIDN't,
whilst under warrenty I ensured I printed regularly and used GENUINE
INKS and from my write up you will find I still had 'clogged heads'
So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
inks - I've prove it
I imagine your problem like mine, got worse over time - be interested
to know out of curiousity.
Davy
old jon
2005-05-10 17:49:59 UTC
Permalink
Quote:
pronounced as separate letters) Short for original equipment manufacturer,
which is a misleading term for a company that has a special relationship
with computer producers. OEMs buy computers in bulk and customize them for a
particular application. They then sell the customized computer under their
own name. The term is really a misnomer because OEMs are not the original
manufacturers -- they are the customizers. End Quote.
Have you ever heard such f*****g rubbish..J
Post by Miss Perspicacia Tick
Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
is dead.
Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
sets of tanks cleaning
Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
Me: - OEM
Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
will void your warranty.
By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
anything other than genuine Epson?
Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
Epson: - /silence/
Me: - Well?
Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
Epson: - No they're OEM
Me: - No, they're third-party
He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
--
In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
Kevin
2005-05-10 18:30:29 UTC
Permalink
Miss P,
Unless I am mistaken, you are in the UK. Have you thought about calling
Epson Technical Support in the USA? I have never been treated in the manner
you have and you are perfectly right to be pissed off. I would call Epson
and insist on speaking with a manager or supervisor and have the text of
your conversation with the snotty tech you spoke with handy. This is what
supervisor are for.

When I called Epson in the US, located in New York as I recall, I was
treated with respect and my issues were dealt with quickly and fairly. I
had a problem with my 820 and a supervisor offered to send me a new R200,
plus a free black cartridge and free shipping with 10% off the website
price.

There was no discussion of semantics involving the meaning of OEM or Genuine
Epson in regards to anything connected with the printer or the cartridges.
I was simply asked if I was using Epson brand cartridges or not.
Post by old jon
pronounced as separate letters) Short for original equipment manufacturer,
which is a misleading term for a company that has a special relationship
with computer producers. OEMs buy computers in bulk and customize them for a
particular application. They then sell the customized computer under their
own name. The term is really a misnomer because OEMs are not the original
manufacturers -- they are the customizers. End Quote.
Have you ever heard such f*****g rubbish..J
Post by Miss Perspicacia Tick
Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
is dead.
Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
sets of tanks cleaning
Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
Me: - OEM
Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
will void your warranty.
By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
anything other than genuine Epson?
Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
Epson: - /silence/
Me: - Well?
Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
Epson: - No they're OEM
Me: - No, they're third-party
He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
--
In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
Arthur Entlich
2005-05-11 18:00:40 UTC
Permalink
I believe Epson US's head offices are still located in Torrence
California, but you got the right country! ;-)

Art
Post by Kevin
When I called Epson in the US, located in New York as I recall, I was
treated with respect and my issues were dealt with quickly and fairly. I
had a problem with my 820 and a supervisor offered to send me a new R200,
plus a free black cartridge and free shipping with 10% off the website
price.
measekite
2005-05-10 20:29:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by old jon
pronounced as separate letters) Short for original equipment manufacturer,
which is a misleading term for a company that has a special relationship
with computer producers. OEMs buy computers in bulk and customize them for a
particular application. They then sell the customized computer under their
own name. The term is really a misnomer because OEMs are not the original
manufacturers -- they are the customizers. End Quote.
Have you ever heard such f*****g rubbish..J
The above paragraph made sense.
Post by old jon
Post by Miss Perspicacia Tick
Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
is dead.
Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
sets of tanks cleaning
Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
Me: - OEM
Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
will void your warranty.
By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
anything other than genuine Epson?
Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
Epson: - /silence/
Me: - Well?
Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
Epson: - No they're OEM
Me: - No, they're third-party
He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
--
In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
Davy
2005-05-10 23:28:56 UTC
Permalink
Davy wrote:
I understand that this model was not up to snuff. The R series of
printer have improved but I hear they are ink guzzlers. Most of the
people who have clog problems either use 3rd party inks and/or have a

light print load.

To measekite
Davy say's
Perhaps you should read what I have said, I shall repeat. Whilst under
guarantee I ENSURED I used Epson Inks - Genuine Epson inks

AGAIN, I will say Epson ink is LIABLE to clog just as much as third
party inks, have I proved that. The only time I did not use Epson ink
was when the 2nd printer developed the same fault in the same amount
of time OK? That was when I switched to JET-TEC. I also ensured that
the printer never went without use..

What are we suppose to do - GO AWAY ON HOLIDAY AND BUY A NEW EPSON
WHEN WE RETURN? AND WHY IS THERE NO ADVICE IN THEIR USER MANUAL
REGARDING THIS MATTER.

I apologise for hi-jacking this post but have to respond to people who
can not comprehend what is being said.
measekite
2005-05-10 23:44:13 UTC
Permalink
It seems like Epson UK is really Epson Anal and that is different from
Epson US who appears to take care of their customers. Anyway I told
you that the problem is mostly likely restricted to that particular
Model. But in general Epsons do have clogging problems but from the
posts I read more so with aftermarket than 3rd party inks but it does
happen with both more than other brands because of their pezio design.
Post by measekite
I understand that this model was not up to snuff. The R series of
printer have improved but I hear they are ink guzzlers. Most of the
people who have clog problems either use 3rd party inks and/or have a
light print load.
To measekite
Davy say's
Perhaps you should read what I have said, I shall repeat. Whilst under
guarantee I ENSURED I used Epson Inks - Genuine Epson inks
AGAIN, I will say Epson ink is LIABLE to clog just as much as third
party inks, have I proved that. The only time I did not use Epson ink
was when the 2nd printer developed the same fault in the same amount
of time OK? That was when I switched to JET-TEC. I also ensured that
the printer never went without use..
What are we suppose to do - GO AWAY ON HOLIDAY AND BUY A NEW EPSON
WHEN WE RETURN? AND WHY IS THERE NO ADVICE IN THEIR USER MANUAL
REGARDING THIS MATTER.
I apologise for hi-jacking this post but have to respond to people who
can not comprehend what is being said.
Burt
2005-05-11 00:03:13 UTC
Permalink
Just the facts, no nasty posts please - you don't use Epsons or third party
inks. Data from Tony who repairs these printers indicates that there are
pretty much equal clogs from OEM and non-OEM inks. Arthur Entlich, from
what I have seen in his posts, is pretty much an expert on Epsons and uses
them with both OEM and non-OEM inks. He has not reported substantially more
problems with non-OEM inks. I appreciate that you know about the two
printers you use, but I would rely on people with hands-on experience for
Epson information.
Post by measekite
It seems like Epson UK is really Epson Anal and that is different from
Epson US who appears to take care of their customers. Anyway I told you
that the problem is mostly likely restricted to that particular Model.
But in general Epsons do have clogging problems but from the posts I read
more so with aftermarket than 3rd party inks but it does happen with both
more than other brands because of their pezio design.
I understand that this model was not up to snuff. The R series of printer
have improved but I hear they are ink guzzlers. Most of the people who
have clog problems either use 3rd party inks and/or have a
light print load.
To measekite
Davy say's
Perhaps you should read what I have said, I shall repeat. Whilst under
guarantee I ENSURED I used Epson Inks - Genuine Epson inks
AGAIN, I will say Epson ink is LIABLE to clog just as much as third
party inks, have I proved that. The only time I did not use Epson ink
was when the 2nd printer developed the same fault in the same amount
of time OK? That was when I switched to JET-TEC. I also ensured that
the printer never went without use..
What are we suppose to do - GO AWAY ON HOLIDAY AND BUY A NEW EPSON WHEN WE
RETURN? AND WHY IS THERE NO ADVICE IN THEIR USER MANUAL
REGARDING THIS MATTER.
I apologise for hi-jacking this post but have to respond to people who
can not comprehend what is being said.
measekite
2005-05-11 01:08:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Burt
Just the facts, no nasty posts please
These are the facts so do not get holier than thou please. And stop the
innuendos. It has been nice and quiet for a few days. I am sure we
both liked it better but as you I am relentless.
Post by Burt
- you don't use Epsons or third party
inks.
That does not mean I am not very knowledgeable.
Post by Burt
Data from Tony who repairs these printers indicates that there are
pretty much equal clogs from OEM and non-OEM inks.
Tony is a staunch member of the AfterMarket Club. Belief in everything
he says has a bias and is questionable.
Post by Burt
Arthur Entlich, from
what I have seen in his posts, is pretty much an expert on Epsons and uses
them with both OEM and non-OEM inks.
Art is knowledgeable but as far as the AfterMarket club he is only a
"card carrying member." And he did say that in the case of Epson
pigmented inks the user is probably better off using Epson inks. And
now with the new Ultrachrome inks that probably hold double. But I am
sure that some sleezeball will try to sell a no name and say it is
compatible. These sleazy vendors need to be put in check and you are
not will to do this forcefully.
Post by Burt
He has not reported substantially more
problems with non-OEM inks. I appreciate that you know about the two
printers you use, but I would rely on people with hands-on experience for
Epson information.
I know about a lot of cameras and I do not use them. I know that a lot
of computers are crap and I do not use them. I know a lot of
restaurants are lousy and do not eat in all of them. And I can tell
that a lot of people have a bias and do not know all of them.
Post by Burt
Post by measekite
It seems like Epson UK is really Epson Anal and that is different from
Epson US who appears to take care of their customers. Anyway I told you
that the problem is mostly likely restricted to that particular Model.
But in general Epsons do have clogging problems but from the posts I read
more so with aftermarket than 3rd party inks but it does happen with both
more than other brands because of their pezio design.
I understand that this model was not up to snuff. The R series of printer
have improved but I hear they are ink guzzlers. Most of the people who
have clog problems either use 3rd party inks and/or have a
light print load.
To measekite
Davy say's
Perhaps you should read what I have said, I shall repeat. Whilst under
guarantee I ENSURED I used Epson Inks - Genuine Epson inks
AGAIN, I will say Epson ink is LIABLE to clog just as much as third
party inks, have I proved that. The only time I did not use Epson ink
was when the 2nd printer developed the same fault in the same amount
of time OK? That was when I switched to JET-TEC. I also ensured that
the printer never went without use..
What are we suppose to do - GO AWAY ON HOLIDAY AND BUY A NEW EPSON WHEN WE
RETURN? AND WHY IS THERE NO ADVICE IN THEIR USER MANUAL
REGARDING THIS MATTER.
I apologise for hi-jacking this post but have to respond to people who
can not comprehend what is being said.
Roy
2005-05-10 23:39:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Miss Perspicacia Tick
Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
is dead.
Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
sets of tanks cleaning
Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
Me: - OEM
Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
will void your warranty.
By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
anything other than genuine Epson?
Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
Epson: - /silence/
Me: - Well?
Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
Epson: - No they're OEM
Me: - No, they're third-party
He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
Hi there.

This sort of thing is becoming more and more common, it is not confined to
Epson .

The problem is "Call Centres".

When you phone any big company nowadays, you get through to one of these
places. They ask certain questions, and while doing so put the answers into
the Computer, and depending on the answers another question is asked.

Just exactly like using the Troubleshooter in Windows.

And the person you are speaking to, knows as little about the subject, and
sometimes a lot less than you do.

So whoever it was would not have clue what O.E. M. meant. The computer would
not have an explanation of those initials either, so the conversation was
bound to deteriorate.

Asking for a supervisor or manager is no help, they are probably only "Call
Centre" orientated, and know nothing about the product.

If you think the OP experience is bad, I would suggest that you never try
phoning the Bank of Scotland (HBOS) or Scottish Gas.

Roy G
Jon O'Brien
2005-05-11 00:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy
The problem is "Call Centres".
Epson UK support is in-house (at least, it was a short while ago).

That doesn't mean to say that you're wrong about the script or the level
of expertise but you can get to speak to a supervisor or manager who does
know what they're talking about.

Jon.
lokki
2005-05-11 06:28:30 UTC
Permalink
while this isn't really on the original topic, it may be of use to
some...

I am investigating a few different cleaning fluids for my suite of
Epson printers. The main reason is that not all are in continuous
use, but when we need them, they must work within a reasonable amount
of time. And, we are not in the habit of making throw-away prints to
keep the heads going.

The reason I bring this up is that it may solve many problems... the
idea is to soak the 'sponge' in the dock with cleaning fluid and let
the heads sit over night. I admit I don't know the actual terms for
the parts, but it shouldn't be hard to figure out. The trick, then,
is to use just enough fluid in a clean sponge to break up the clogs
without using so much that the head is damaged. After soaking, run a
few cleaning cycles.

This appears to work with both Epson and 3rd party inks, but I highly
recommend *careful* testing on your own. We've done this on two
9600s, two 2200s, a 7600 and seen it done on a 4000. None had
problems.
measekite
2005-05-11 14:15:18 UTC
Permalink
After seeing all of these headaches with Epson printers I am glad I did
not get one.
Post by lokki
while this isn't really on the original topic, it may be of use to
some...
I am investigating a few different cleaning fluids for my suite of
Epson printers. The main reason is that not all are in continuous
use, but when we need them, they must work within a reasonable amount
of time. And, we are not in the habit of making throw-away prints to
keep the heads going.
The reason I bring this up is that it may solve many problems... the
idea is to soak the 'sponge' in the dock with cleaning fluid and let
the heads sit over night. I admit I don't know the actual terms for
the parts, but it shouldn't be hard to figure out. The trick, then,
is to use just enough fluid in a clean sponge to break up the clogs
without using so much that the head is damaged. After soaking, run a
few cleaning cycles.
This appears to work with both Epson and 3rd party inks, but I highly
recommend *careful* testing on your own. We've done this on two
9600s, two 2200s, a 7600 and seen it done on a 4000. None had
problems.
Ivor Floppy
2005-05-11 14:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by measekite
After seeing all of these headaches with Epson printers I am glad I did
not get one.
You should join a few of the printer / digital photography forurms, and see
all the problems people are having with Canon printers.....
measekite
2005-05-11 14:37:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ivor Floppy
Post by measekite
After seeing all of these headaches with Epson printers I am glad I did
not get one.
You should join a few of the printer / digital photography forurms, and see
all the problems people are having with Canon printers.....
About 1 Canon for every 20 Epsons. And that is jsut a rough count.
Ivor Floppy
2005-05-11 14:59:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by measekite
Post by Ivor Floppy
Post by measekite
After seeing all of these headaches with Epson printers I am glad I did
not get one.
You should join a few of the printer / digital photography forurms, and
see all the problems people are having with Canon printers.....
About 1 Canon for every 20 Epsons. And that is jsut a rough count.
Perhaps you should have a read of
http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/view_forum.php?id=40 - just as an
example.




Now, can you provide me with evidence that shows 20 Epson problems for every
1 Canon problem?

No, I thought not.
lokki
2005-05-11 06:28:30 UTC
Permalink
oh yeah... the fluids I've tried are about $35US/litre. Kind of
expensive, but we only use 1/2 oz or so at a shot. That lasts quite a
long time. My current source is a local vendor with no web site, but
I'm sure a little time w/ Google will get the needed information on
supplies.
Davy
2005-05-11 10:33:12 UTC
Permalink
Lokki.
What about Isopropanol? It evaporates fast, leaves no film or residue,
available in fluid or aerosol form - and the fumes send ya (pure
alcohol) and don't attack plastics.

Since mine is crap anyway I tried it on mine, sure did get all the
ink off but it didn't cure the fault. I was saying elsewhere that
having the complete detailed service manual I removed the tank
holder with the head intact and noted the ink weeping, not dripping,
not running but weeping from the head trim that clamps the head to
the base.

I still ended up with the same ol' print problem, which seems to get
worse as I up the print quality. so it either the nozzles, the head
chamber, or the sealing.

One common problem more so with the C80 series is the waste pump tube
becoming detached - but not in my case..!

Davy said that.
Safetymom123
2005-05-11 11:45:14 UTC
Permalink
I think that tech is wrong at Epson. I am sure they strongly recommend
Epson cartridges but it doesn't void the warranty if you use aftermarket
ink. Call and ask someone else.
Post by Miss Perspicacia Tick
Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
is dead.
Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
sets of tanks cleaning
Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
Me: - OEM
Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
will void your warranty.
By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
anything other than genuine Epson?
Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
Epson: - /silence/
Me: - Well?
Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
Epson: - No they're OEM
Me: - No, they're third-party
He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
--
In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
Nancy Ames
2005-05-11 11:55:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Safetymom123
I think that tech is wrong at Epson. I am sure they strongly
recommend Epson cartridges but it doesn't void the warranty if
you use aftermarket ink. Call and ask someone else.
Duh!

I do belive Miss Perspicacia Tick understands. ;-)
Post by Safetymom123
Post by Miss Perspicacia Tick
Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the
printhead is dead.
-snip-
Post by Safetymom123
Post by Miss Perspicacia Tick
He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't
know anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call
them tomorrow, and see if I get someone who does know the
correct meaning of OEM.
Davy
2005-05-11 17:26:57 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Jon O'Brien
You've proved that your C62s clogged, which is not the same thing.
For the Nth time: many people have used Epson inkjet printers for
years
Post by Jon O'Brien
without having more than the occasional blockage which is easily
cleared
Post by Jon O'Brien
by running a head cleaning cycle. I'm one of them.
Proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt, you like to quote but without
any explanation so what is not the same thing....?
Post by Jon O'Brien
Is a head clog not an head clog then, yes I agree there's alot of
Epson's about and don't have the trouble that I HAVE EXPERIENCED, but
there are complaints about Epsons clogging and not just C62's you only
need to look around
Post by Jon O'Brien
T he problems arose using GENUINE EPSON INK's so am I right again in
saying that original inks are as liable to clog than any other ink? So
what is not the same then?
Jon O'Brien
2005-05-12 14:49:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davy
In article
You've proved that your C62s clogged, which is not the same thing.
For the Nth time: many people have used Epson inkjet printers for
years without having more than the occasional blockage which is easily
cleared by running a head cleaning cycle. I'm one of them.
Proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt, you like to quote but without
any explanation so what is not the same thing....?
Sorry, I though it was self-evident. There's plenty of doubt.
Post by Davy
So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
inks - I've prove it
That implies that you've proved that all Epson printers clog, whatever ink
is being used. You haven't. All you've 'proved' (we'll gloss over the fact
that no one here has seen any actual proof, we've only read your version
of events, which doesn't even _prove_ that you've ever owned a printer) is
that you had clogging problems with several C62s. You can't use your
limited experience of Epson printers to extrapolate to all models and all
users. It could be that: a) there's something about the way you used the
printers that caused the clogging. b) there's something in the environment
where your printers were kept that caused the clogging (dust, low
humidity, etc). c) some C62s clog and all the ones you had were in this
group. d) there was a problem with the C62 design which made it
susceptible to clogging (which I think someone here suggested may be the
case).
Post by Davy
Is a head clog not an head clog then, yes I agree there's alot of
Epson's about and don't have the trouble that I HAVE EXPERIENCED, but
there are complaints about Epsons clogging and not just C62's you only
need to look around
I'm aware of the reports but, as you have pointed out, there are plenty of
people that don't experience the problem, which makes your statement
'Epsons will clog' a sweeping generalisation which can be proved false. To
use your own words: 'I've prove it'.
Post by Davy
The problems arose using GENUINE EPSON INK's so am I right again in
saying that original inks are as liable to clog than any other ink?
It supports the experience of others that Epsons can clog, no matter what
ink formulation is used. It doesn't prove, one way or the other, that they
are '...as liable to clog...'. However, it ignores the fact that some
people /never/ have serious clogging problems, regardless of which inks
they use.

What you're saying is equivalent to arguing that the common factor amongst
people who are killed crossing the road is that they were crossing the
road at the time, therefore crossing the road kills you. It can, but it
doesn't always and more people die whilst not crossing a road than die
crossing one. What's more likely is that some were being careless, some
were drunk, some were hit by a careless driver, some weren't actually
crossing the road but fell or were pushed into it, etc.

Clogging may be due to:

- A badly designed printer/print head.
- How often the printer is used.
- The kind of ink being used.
- How the printer is used (E.g. paper that produces lots of dust).
- Where the printer is used (E.g. low-humidity environment, direct
sunlight).
- Some other cause, of which I'm unaware.

Until you've carried out tests which rule out every possibility, you
haven't _proved_ anything.

Jon.
measekite
2005-05-12 15:00:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon O'Brien
Post by Davy
In article
You've proved that your C62s clogged, which is not the same thing.
For the Nth time: many people have used Epson inkjet printers for
years without having more than the occasional blockage which is easily
cleared by running a head cleaning cycle. I'm one of them.
Proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt, you like to quote but without
any explanation so what is not the same thing....?
Sorry, I though it was self-evident. There's plenty of doubt.
Post by Davy
So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
inks - I've prove it
That implies that you've proved that all Epson printers clog, whatever ink
is being used. You haven't. All you've 'proved' (we'll gloss over the fact
that no one here has seen any actual proof, we've only read your version
of events, which doesn't even _prove_ that you've ever owned a printer) is
that you had clogging problems with several C62s. You can't use your
limited experience of Epson printers to extrapolate to all models and all
users. It could be that: a) there's something about the way you used the
printers that caused the clogging. b) there's something in the environment
where your printers were kept that caused the clogging (dust, low
humidity, etc). c) some C62s clog and all the ones you had were in this
group. d) there was a problem with the C62 design which made it
susceptible to clogging (which I think someone here suggested may be the
case).
Post by Davy
Is a head clog not an head clog then, yes I agree there's alot of
Epson's about and don't have the trouble that I HAVE EXPERIENCED, but
there are complaints about Epsons clogging and not just C62's you only
need to look around
I'm aware of the reports but, as you have pointed out, there are plenty of
people that don't experience the problem, which makes your statement
'Epsons will clog' a sweeping generalisation which can be proved false. To
use your own words: 'I've prove it'.
Post by Davy
The problems arose using GENUINE EPSON INK's so am I right again in
saying that original inks are as liable to clog than any other ink?
It supports the experience of others that Epsons can clog, no matter what
ink formulation is used. It doesn't prove, one way or the other, that they
are '...as liable to clog...'. However, it ignores the fact that some
people /never/ have serious clogging problems, regardless of which inks
they use.
All of everything said in this post is true. However, very generally it
is known that Epson printers as a class have a greater tendency to clog
than Canon and that Canon, while much smaller, will have a greater
propensity to clog over an HP with cart and head together. While it is
generally true it is equally true that many people have had the right
mix of usage that they did not experience any clogs or just an
occassional one. It is also true, as admitted by the Epson Factory Rep I
spoke with that Epson goes through numerous unasked for cleaning cycles
and uses more ink.
Post by Jon O'Brien
What you're saying is equivalent to arguing that the common factor amongst
people who are killed crossing the road is that they were crossing the
road at the time, therefore crossing the road kills you. It can, but it
doesn't always and more people die whilst not crossing a road than die
crossing one. What's more likely is that some were being careless, some
were drunk, some were hit by a careless driver, some weren't actually
crossing the road but fell or were pushed into it, etc.
- A badly designed printer/print head.
- How often the printer is used.
- The kind of ink being used.
- How the printer is used (E.g. paper that produces lots of dust).
- Where the printer is used (E.g. low-humidity environment, direct
sunlight).
- Some other cause, of which I'm unaware.
Until you've carried out tests which rule out every possibility, you
haven't _proved_ anything.
Jon.
Jon O'Brien
2005-05-12 16:28:00 UTC
Permalink
...very generally it is known that Epson printers as a class have a
greater tendency to clog than Canon...
That may be true but without verified figures showing how many experience
clogging as a percentage of units sold it's only speculation. I believe
Epson sells more inkjet printers than Canon in most world markets.

Whatever the truth may be, suggesting that all Epson printers clog is
misleading. More helpful would be to say that clogging in Epson printers
seems, generally, to be unrelated to ink formulation and to pass on to
trying to discover what factors are truly significant. Perspective buyers
can then decide whether or not to buy an Epson based on their projected
usage, environment, etc.

Jon.
measekite
2005-05-12 16:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon O'Brien
...very generally it is known that Epson printers as a class have a
greater tendency to clog than Canon...
That may be true but without verified figures showing how many experience
clogging as a percentage of units sold it's only speculation. I believe
Epson sells more inkjet printers than Canon in most world markets.
Whatever the truth may be, suggesting that all Epson printers clog is
misleading. More helpful would be to say that clogging in Epson printers
seems, generally, to be unrelated to ink formulation
Yes but more people who are not using Epson inks appear to be doing more
complaining about clogs.
Post by Jon O'Brien
and to pass on to
trying to discover what factors are truly significant. Perspective buyers
can then decide whether or not to buy an Epson based on their projected
usage, environment, etc.
Jon.
J L Williams
2005-05-12 21:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon O'Brien
...very generally it is known that Epson printers as a class have a
greater tendency to clog than Canon...
That may be true but without verified figures showing how many experience
clogging as a percentage of units sold it's only speculation. I believe
Epson sells more inkjet printers than Canon in most world markets.
Hi just found this group and topic.
Can one 'unclog' an Epson printer? Has anyone tried? Had any success?
I've tried the nozzle clean etc many times but without success.
Appreciate your thoughts.
Cheers
Jim
PS A Stylus color 440 and a Stylus Color lls
Hecate
2005-05-12 22:44:17 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 12 May 2005 22:09:24 +0100, J L Williams
Post by J L Williams
Post by Jon O'Brien
...very generally it is known that Epson printers as a class have a
greater tendency to clog than Canon...
That may be true but without verified figures showing how many experience
clogging as a percentage of units sold it's only speculation. I believe
Epson sells more inkjet printers than Canon in most world markets.
Hi just found this group and topic.
Can one 'unclog' an Epson printer? Has anyone tried? Had any success?
I've tried the nozzle clean etc many times but without success.
Appreciate your thoughts.
Cheers
Jim
PS A Stylus color 440 and a Stylus Color lls
Find a post by Arthur Entlich. Write to him and he'll send you a
manual by email for free on how to unclog.

--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
J L Williams
2005-05-13 10:44:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hecate
Post by J L Williams
Hi just found this group and topic.
Can one 'unclog' an Epson printer? Has anyone tried? Had any success?
I've tried the nozzle clean etc many times but without success.
Appreciate your thoughts.
Cheers
Jim
PS A Stylus color 440 and a Stylus Color lls
Find a post by Arthur Entlich. Write to him and he'll send you a
manual by email for free on how to unclog.
Thanks very kindly. I'll do just that :)
Jim
Arthur Entlich
2005-05-13 15:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Here's a posting from that guy, referred to ;-)

If you use my email address as shown in the header above and ask for the
Epson Cleaning Manual, I will gladly send you a copy at no charge.
Please mention which model printer is involved a bit of a description as
to what you are seeing.

Art
Post by Hecate
On Thu, 12 May 2005 22:09:24 +0100, J L Williams
Post by J L Williams
Post by Jon O'Brien
...very generally it is known that Epson printers as a class have a
greater tendency to clog than Canon...
That may be true but without verified figures showing how many experience
clogging as a percentage of units sold it's only speculation. I believe
Epson sells more inkjet printers than Canon in most world markets.
Hi just found this group and topic.
Can one 'unclog' an Epson printer? Has anyone tried? Had any success?
I've tried the nozzle clean etc many times but without success.
Appreciate your thoughts.
Cheers
Jim
PS A Stylus color 440 and a Stylus Color lls
Find a post by Arthur Entlich. Write to him and he'll send you a
manual by email for free on how to unclog.
--
Hecate - The Real One
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
J L Williams
2005-05-13 18:31:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Entlich
Here's a posting from that guy, referred to ;-)
If you use my email address as shown in the header above and ask for the
Epson Cleaning Manual, I will gladly send you a copy at no charge.
Please mention which model printer is involved a bit of a description as
to what you are seeing.
Art
Hi Art, I found your addy with google and sent off an email to you.
I have two printers clogged, Stylus color lls prints only black, and
the color 440 wont print anything at all. This was just after fitting
3rd party carts.
Cheers and TIA.
Jim
Post by Arthur Entlich
Post by Hecate
On Thu, 12 May 2005 22:09:24 +0100, J L Williams
Post by J L Williams
Hi just found this group and topic.
Can one 'unclog' an Epson printer? Has anyone tried? Had any success?
I've tried the nozzle clean etc many times but without success.
Appreciate your thoughts.
Cheers
Jim
PS A Stylus color 440 and a Stylus Color lls
Arthur Entlich
2005-05-14 12:52:25 UTC
Permalink
I've responded in private mail, and you should hopefully have the manual
by now.

Art
Post by J L Williams
Hi Art, I found your addy with google and sent off an email to you.
I have two printers clogged, Stylus color lls prints only black, and
the color 440 wont print anything at all. This was just after fitting
3rd party carts.
Cheers and TIA.
Jim
J L Williams
2005-05-14 15:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Entlich
I've responded in private mail, and you should hopefully have the manual
by now.
Art
Yes got it this morning Art
Very many thanks, I'll have to set aside some time to do them now.
Cheers
Jim
Post by Arthur Entlich
Post by J L Williams
Hi Art, I found your addy with google and sent off an email to you.
I have two printers clogged, Stylus color lls prints only black, and
the color 440 wont print anything at all. This was just after fitting
3rd party carts.
Cheers and TIA.
Jim
old jon
2005-05-11 18:19:46 UTC
Permalink
This post certainly brought a lot of waffle out, but for most sane people
the Original Equipment Manufacturer sure means, The Manufacturer who
Originally made the Equipment. The bulk buyers are just firms who Mod them
and rebadge them..J
Post by Miss Perspicacia Tick
Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
is dead.
Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
sets of tanks cleaning
Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
Me: - OEM
Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
will void your warranty.
By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
anything other than genuine Epson?
Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
Epson: - /silence/
Me: - Well?
Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
Epson: - No they're OEM
Me: - No, they're third-party
He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
--
In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
lokki
2005-05-12 07:52:51 UTC
Permalink
Davy,

100% IPA will attack many poly plastics, iirc. Storebought stuff (here
in the US) is generally 91%, and seems to be pretty kind to most
surfaces. I haven't thought about it much, but I don't see why it
wouldn't work to remove ink. The cleaning fluids we are using tend to
have small amounts of glycerin and a lower vapor pressure so they
don't evaporate as quickly.

I'm a little hesitant to try it, though, as the thinner IPA might wick
(capillary action) into the ink well - not sure about that, though.

aside - I see you are in Manchester. I'm guessing you *don't* work for
the AWE, given this recent article:

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/news/2005/april/nuclear.htm

:)
MikeD
2005-05-12 11:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by lokki
Davy,
100% IPA will attack many poly plastics, iirc. Storebought stuff (here
in the US) is generally 91%, and seems to be pretty kind to most
surfaces. I haven't thought about it much, but I don't see why it
wouldn't work to remove ink. The cleaning fluids we are using tend to
have small amounts of glycerin and a lower vapor pressure so they
don't evaporate as quickly.
I'm a little hesitant to try it, though, as the thinner IPA might wick
(capillary action) into the ink well - not sure about that, though.
I use IPA from my local chemist (92% I think) for general cleaning inside
and outside my printers and it hasn't attacked any of the plastics.

For cleaning the nozzles and under the heads I follow Art's recipe for Epson
printers and it works brilliantly.

Mike
Burt
2005-05-13 00:28:20 UTC
Permalink
Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the good
news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning cycles from their
software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning manual as a resource
for going beyond clicking the head cleaning button, and almost all Epson
(and many other printers) can be restored to excellent function with very
little effort or time expended. Instead of bemoaning the potential for
clogs we should focus on these simple maintenance steps to keep our printers
functioning. BTW, my Epson Stylus 900 clogged occasionally and I only use
OEM inks in this printer. Easily fixed. My Canon i960 with non-oem
(carefully selected) inks has not clogged yet with almost a year of use.
When it does, I have learned from people who post to this and other forums
how to solve the problem.
Post by MikeD
Post by lokki
Davy,
100% IPA will attack many poly plastics, iirc. Storebought stuff (here
in the US) is generally 91%, and seems to be pretty kind to most
surfaces. I haven't thought about it much, but I don't see why it
wouldn't work to remove ink. The cleaning fluids we are using tend to
have small amounts of glycerin and a lower vapor pressure so they
don't evaporate as quickly.
I'm a little hesitant to try it, though, as the thinner IPA might wick
(capillary action) into the ink well - not sure about that, though.
I use IPA from my local chemist (92% I think) for general cleaning inside
and outside my printers and it hasn't attacked any of the plastics.
For cleaning the nozzles and under the heads I follow Art's recipe for Epson
printers and it works brilliantly.
Mike
measekite
2005-05-13 02:21:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Burt
Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the good
news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning cycles from their
software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning manual as a resource
for going beyond clicking the head cleaning button, and almost all Epson
(and many other printers) can be restored to excellent function with very
little effort or time expended. Instead of bemoaning the potential for
clogs we should focus on these simple maintenance steps to keep our printers
functioning. BTW, my Epson Stylus 900 clogged occasionally and I only use
OEM inks in this printer. Easily fixed. My Canon i960 with non-oem
(carefully selected) inks has not clogged yet with almost a year of use.
When it does, I have learned from people who post to this and other forums
how to solve the problem.
When you buy a car you really do not want a maintenance headache. You
want to drive. Well the same should be true about printing. You want
to do photography and enjoy the result; not nursemaid a printer.
Post by Burt
Post by MikeD
Post by lokki
Davy,
100% IPA will attack many poly plastics, iirc. Storebought stuff (here
in the US) is generally 91%, and seems to be pretty kind to most
surfaces. I haven't thought about it much, but I don't see why it
wouldn't work to remove ink. The cleaning fluids we are using tend to
have small amounts of glycerin and a lower vapor pressure so they
don't evaporate as quickly.
I'm a little hesitant to try it, though, as the thinner IPA might wick
(capillary action) into the ink well - not sure about that, though.
I use IPA from my local chemist (92% I think) for general cleaning inside
and outside my printers and it hasn't attacked any of the plastics.
For cleaning the nozzles and under the heads I follow Art's recipe for Epson
printers and it works brilliantly.
Mike
Burt
2005-05-13 03:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the
good news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning cycles from
their software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning manual as a
resource for going beyond clicking the head cleaning button, and almost
all Epson (and many other printers) can be restored to excellent function
with very little effort or time expended. Instead of bemoaning the
potential for clogs we should focus on these simple maintenance steps to
keep our printers functioning. BTW, my Epson Stylus 900 clogged
occasionally and I only use OEM inks in this printer. Easily fixed. My
Canon i960 with non-oem (carefully selected) inks has not clogged yet with
almost a year of use. When it does, I have learned from people who post to
this and other forums how to solve the problem.
When you buy a car you really do not want a maintenance headache. You
want to drive. Well the same should be true about printing. You want to
do photography and enjoy the result; not nursemaid a printer.
(snip)

Hate to clue you in on a fact of life, but EVERYTHING requires some
maintenance and occasional repairs. Even you and me! Even the most revered
cars with the best Consumers Union stamp of approval are rated as arriving
with "x" number of defects, and every car I've ever owned, from Porsche to
VW bug to Honda to Toyota, came with a printed maintenance schedule and a
dealer with a busy repair department. Years back when Jags were plagued
with electrical problems I had friends who continued to buy and happily
drive them. A few of them were medical professionals who were also skilled
auto mechanics, and they knew exactly what they were buying and why. Some
additional maintenance was worth the great driving experience to them. To
say nothing of friends who, in spite of the terrible reputation for
requiring repairs, loved the way their Ferraris drove and handled. What you
describe as a headache is, for some, just a tradeoff for something they
enjoy using. It is the glass half empty vs. the glass half full
phylosophy --- you call it a headache and someone else just shrugs it off as
simple maintenance to use something they enjoy.

More specifically, my Epson printer only clogged mildly after more than
three years of use, and an hour's worth of maintenance at home fixed it.
Not exactly playing nursmaid and certainly not a maintenance headache.
measekite
2005-05-13 15:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Burt
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the
good news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning cycles from
their software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning manual as a
resource for going beyond clicking the head cleaning button, and almost
all Epson (and many other printers) can be restored to excellent function
with very little effort or time expended. Instead of bemoaning the
potential for clogs we should focus on these simple maintenance steps to
keep our printers functioning. BTW, my Epson Stylus 900 clogged
occasionally and I only use OEM inks in this printer. Easily fixed. My
Canon i960 with non-oem (carefully selected) inks has not clogged yet with
almost a year of use. When it does, I have learned from people who post to
this and other forums how to solve the problem.
When you buy a car you really do not want a maintenance headache. You
want to drive. Well the same should be true about printing. You want to
do photography and enjoy the result; not nursemaid a printer.
(snip)
Hate to clue you in on a fact of life, but EVERYTHING requires some
maintenance and occasional repairs. Even you and me! Even the most revered
cars with the best Consumers Union stamp of approval are rated as arriving
with "x" number of defects, and every car I've ever owned, from Porsche to
VW bug to Honda to Toyota, came with a printed maintenance schedule and a
dealer with a busy repair department. Years back when Jags were plagued
with electrical problems I had friends who continued to buy and happily
drive them. A few of them were medical professionals who were also skilled
auto mechanics, and they knew exactly what they were buying and why.
I guess that your friends made poor choices.
Post by Burt
Some
additional maintenance was worth the great driving experience to them. To
say nothing of friends who, in spite of the terrible reputation for
requiring repairs, loved the way their Ferraris drove and handled. What you
describe as a headache is, for some, just a tradeoff for something they
enjoy using.
A headache is a headache. I guess some people enjoy headaches.
Post by Burt
It is the glass half empty vs. the glass half full
phylosophy --- you call it a headache and someone else just shrugs it off as
simple maintenance to use something they enjoy.
More specifically, my Epson printer only clogged mildly after more than
three years of use, and an hour's worth of maintenance at home fixed it.
Not exactly playing nursmaid and certainly not a maintenance headache.
Burt
2005-05-13 17:13:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the
good news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning cycles from
their software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning manual as a
resource for going beyond clicking the head cleaning button, and almost
all Epson (and many other printers) can be restored to excellent
function with very little effort or time expended. Instead of
bemoaning the potential for clogs we should focus on these simple
maintenance steps to keep our printers functioning. BTW, my Epson
Stylus 900 clogged occasionally and I only use OEM inks in this printer.
Easily fixed. My Canon i960 with non-oem (carefully selected) inks has
not clogged yet with almost a year of use. When it does, I have learned
from people who post to this and other forums how to solve the problem.
When you buy a car you really do not want a maintenance headache. You
want to drive. Well the same should be true about printing. You want to
do photography and enjoy the result; not nursemaid a printer.
(snip)
Hate to clue you in on a fact of life, but EVERYTHING requires some
maintenance and occasional repairs. Even you and me! Even the most
revered cars with the best Consumers Union stamp of approval are rated as
arriving with "x" number of defects, and every car I've ever owned, from
Porsche to VW bug to Honda to Toyota, came with a printed maintenance
schedule and a dealer with a busy repair department. Years back when Jags
were plagued with electrical problems I had friends who continued to buy
and happily drive them. A few of them were medical professionals who were
also skilled auto mechanics, and they knew exactly what they were buying
and why.
I guess that your friends made poor choices.
If you had ever driven an XK120, XK150, or an XKE you wouldn't think theirs
was a poor choice. Although cars are now more refined and much safer, in
their day these were fantastic cars. I preferred Porsches, and when I owned
them they were not as "premium priced" as they are today. Of course, you
might have preferred a VW bug, Datsun (now Nissan) or Toyopet (now Toyota)
as they were much cheaper and more economical to run, but as you know, there
are other things to consider and that is why you drive an Acura instead of
today's equivalent of the Yugo (your favorite to compare to other products
that you regard as poor quality).
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
Some additional maintenance was worth the great driving experience to
them. To say nothing of friends who, in spite of the terrible reputation
for requiring repairs, loved the way their Ferraris drove and handled.
What you describe as a headache is, for some, just a tradeoff for
something they enjoy using.>>
A headache is a headache. I guess some people enjoy headaches.
Again you use the pejoritive word "headache" where someone elso would say
"some additional maintenance." You are dealing in opinion and semantics in
an attempt to convince others of your point of view. Unconvincing to people
who can parse your statement and look for real information, and unfair to
newbies who need objective information on which to base their choices.
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
It is the glass half empty vs. the glass half full phylosophy --- you
call it a headache and someone else just shrugs it off as simple
maintenance to use something they enjoy.
More specifically, my Epson printer only clogged mildly after more than
three years of use, and an hour's worth of maintenance at home fixed it.
Not exactly playing nursmaid and certainly not a maintenance headache.
measekite
2005-05-14 04:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Burt
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the
good news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning cycles from
their software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning manual as a
resource for going beyond clicking the head cleaning button, and almost
all Epson (and many other printers) can be restored to excellent
function with very little effort or time expended. Instead of
bemoaning the potential for clogs we should focus on these simple
maintenance steps to keep our printers functioning. BTW, my Epson
Stylus 900 clogged occasionally and I only use OEM inks in this printer.
Easily fixed. My Canon i960 with non-oem (carefully selected) inks has
not clogged yet with almost a year of use. When it does, I have learned
from people who post to this and other forums how to solve the problem.
When you buy a car you really do not want a maintenance headache. You
want to drive. Well the same should be true about printing. You want to
do photography and enjoy the result; not nursemaid a printer.
(snip)
Hate to clue you in on a fact of life, but EVERYTHING requires some
maintenance and occasional repairs. Even you and me! Even the most
revered cars with the best Consumers Union stamp of approval are rated as
arriving with "x" number of defects, and every car I've ever owned, from
Porsche to VW bug to Honda to Toyota, came with a printed maintenance
schedule and a dealer with a busy repair department. Years back when Jags
were plagued with electrical problems I had friends who continued to buy
and happily drive them. A few of them were medical professionals who were
also skilled auto mechanics, and they knew exactly what they were buying
and why.
I guess that your friends made poor choices.
If you had ever driven an XK120, XK150, or an XKE you wouldn't think theirs
was a poor choice. Although cars are now more refined and much safer, in
their day these were fantastic cars. I preferred Porsches, and when I owned
them they were not as "premium priced" as they are today. Of course, you
might have preferred a VW bug, Datsun (now Nissan) or Toyopet (now Toyota)
as they were much cheaper and more economical to run, but as you know, there
are other things to consider and that is why you drive an Acura instead of
today's equivalent of the Yugo (your favorite to compare to other products
that you regard as poor quality).
From a maintenance point of view, my Acura is far more maintenance
friendly than my Mercedes. Other than the paint quality the Acura is a
better car. But the Mercedes appears to have a more solid foundation
and body.
Post by Burt
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
Some additional maintenance was worth the great driving experience to
them. To say nothing of friends who, in spite of the terrible reputation
for requiring repairs, loved the way their Ferraris drove and handled.
What you describe as a headache is, for some, just a tradeoff for
something they enjoy using.>>
A headache is a headache. I guess some people enjoy headaches.
Again you use the pejoritive word "headache" where someone elso would say
"some additional maintenance." You are dealing in opinion and semantics in
an attempt to convince others of your point of view. Unconvincing to people
who can parse your statement and look for real information, and unfair to
newbies who need objective information on which to base their choices.
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
It is the glass half empty vs. the glass half full phylosophy --- you
call it a headache and someone else just shrugs it off as simple
maintenance to use something they enjoy.
More specifically, my Epson printer only clogged mildly after more than
three years of use, and an hour's worth of maintenance at home fixed it.
Not exactly playing nursmaid and certainly not a maintenance headache.
Burt
2005-05-14 05:35:30 UTC
Permalink
(snip[)
Post by measekite
From a maintenance point of view, my Acura is far more maintenance
friendly than my Mercedes. Other than the paint quality the Acura is a
better car. But the Mercedes appears to have a more solid foundation and
body.
(snip)

I was in Tokyo in 1959 and 1960 and could have had any car shipped directly
from the factory on a diplomatic discount. choices were the jag xk150,
Mercedes 190XL, and the Porsche 1600S roadster. Having driven them all, the
Porsche was my choice, hands down. Not as luxurious, but a great driving
car. In 2001 my wife went for the BMW 3 series after having driven the top
of the line Acura coupe and a Mercedes sport sedan. Beemer was a much more
refined response and tighter handling car at that time, but as you
described, not as maintenance friendly. Sometimes being practical is not
nearly as much fun as going for the experience you want. The newest top of
the line Acuras are the best they have produced.
Ron Cohen
2005-05-14 21:46:51 UTC
Permalink
Those were the good old days. Wouldn't it be great if cars had the same
pricing history as computers. In 1968 I purchased a brand new BMW 1600 for
$2800.00. In the early 1980's when IBM introduced the first PC it cost me
over $2800.00 for a 64k processor with two single side diskette drives an 80
cps dot matrix printer and I used a 13" b/w TV set as a monitor. That was a
bargain at the time since my IBM employee discount was 50% of list. Now look
at what an entry level BMW costs and what a well equipped PC runs.

Ron
Post by Burt
(snip[)
Post by measekite
From a maintenance point of view, my Acura is far more maintenance
friendly than my Mercedes. Other than the paint quality the Acura is a
better car. But the Mercedes appears to have a more solid foundation and
body.
(snip)
I was in Tokyo in 1959 and 1960 and could have had any car shipped
directly from the factory on a diplomatic discount. choices were the jag
xk150, Mercedes 190XL, and the Porsche 1600S roadster. Having driven them
all, the Porsche was my choice, hands down. Not as luxurious, but a great
driving car. In 2001 my wife went for the BMW 3 series after having
driven the top of the line Acura coupe and a Mercedes sport sedan. Beemer
was a much more refined response and tighter handling car at that time,
but as you described, not as maintenance friendly. Sometimes being
practical is not nearly as much fun as going for the experience you want.
The newest top of the line Acuras are the best they have produced.
Ron Cohen
2005-05-13 23:26:18 UTC
Permalink
When it comes to things mechanical, the question isn't "If it will break?",
but "When will it break?" The same goes for electronics, human bodies and
nature. Murphy's law is alive and well. Maxtor is supposed to make reliable
disk drives. At the moment, I'd disagree with that since one of mine burned
out last week - and of course it's their fault (definitely not mine since we
aren't supposed to be responsible for our own actions <g>) that most of the
drive wasn't backed up.
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the
good news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning cycles from
their software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning manual as a
resource for going beyond clicking the head cleaning button, and almost
all Epson (and many other printers) can be restored to excellent
function with very little effort or time expended. Instead of
bemoaning the potential for clogs we should focus on these simple
maintenance steps to keep our printers functioning. BTW, my Epson
Stylus 900 clogged occasionally and I only use OEM inks in this printer.
Easily fixed. My Canon i960 with non-oem (carefully selected) inks has
not clogged yet with almost a year of use. When it does, I have learned
from people who post to this and other forums how to solve the problem.
When you buy a car you really do not want a maintenance headache. You
want to drive. Well the same should be true about printing. You want to
do photography and enjoy the result; not nursemaid a printer.
(snip)
Hate to clue you in on a fact of life, but EVERYTHING requires some
maintenance and occasional repairs. Even you and me! Even the most
revered cars with the best Consumers Union stamp of approval are rated as
arriving with "x" number of defects, and every car I've ever owned, from
Porsche to VW bug to Honda to Toyota, came with a printed maintenance
schedule and a dealer with a busy repair department. Years back when Jags
were plagued with electrical problems I had friends who continued to buy
and happily drive them. A few of them were medical professionals who were
also skilled auto mechanics, and they knew exactly what they were buying
and why.
I guess that your friends made poor choices.
Post by Burt
Some additional maintenance was worth the great driving experience to
them. To say nothing of friends who, in spite of the terrible reputation
for requiring repairs, loved the way their Ferraris drove and handled.
What you describe as a headache is, for some, just a tradeoff for
something they enjoy using.
A headache is a headache. I guess some people enjoy headaches.
Post by Burt
It is the glass half empty vs. the glass half full phylosophy --- you
call it a headache and someone else just shrugs it off as simple
maintenance to use something they enjoy.
More specifically, my Epson printer only clogged mildly after more than
three years of use, and an hour's worth of maintenance at home fixed it.
Not exactly playing nursmaid and certainly not a maintenance headache.
Ivor Floppy
2005-05-13 13:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the
good news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning cycles from
their software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning manual as a
resource for going beyond clicking the head cleaning button, and almost
all Epson (and many other printers) can be restored to excellent function
with very little effort or time expended. Instead of bemoaning the
potential for clogs we should focus on these simple maintenance steps to
keep our printers functioning. BTW, my Epson Stylus 900 clogged
occasionally and I only use OEM inks in this printer. Easily fixed. My
Canon i960 with non-oem (carefully selected) inks has not clogged yet with
almost a year of use. When it does, I have learned from people who post to
this and other forums how to solve the problem.
When you buy a car you really do not want a maintenance headache. You
want to drive.
So you *never* check the oil, water, tyre pressure, brake fluid levels etc?
I'd hate to be with you when you breakdown.....
measekite
2005-05-13 15:49:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ivor Floppy
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the
good news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning cycles from
their software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning manual as a
resource for going beyond clicking the head cleaning button, and almost
all Epson (and many other printers) can be restored to excellent function
with very little effort or time expended. Instead of bemoaning the
potential for clogs we should focus on these simple maintenance steps to
keep our printers functioning. BTW, my Epson Stylus 900 clogged
occasionally and I only use OEM inks in this printer. Easily fixed. My
Canon i960 with non-oem (carefully selected) inks has not clogged yet with
almost a year of use. When it does, I have learned from people who post to
this and other forums how to solve the problem.
When you buy a car you really do not want a maintenance headache. You
want to drive.
So you *never* check the oil, water, tyre pressure, brake fluid levels etc?
I'd hate to be with you when you breakdown.....
I have someone else do that for me.
Jon O'Brien
2005-05-13 18:46:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ivor Floppy
So you *never* check the oil, water, tyre pressure, brake fluid levels
etc? I'd hate to be with you when you breakdown.....
I thought we'd already established that he's not old enough to drive.

Jon.
measekite
2005-05-14 09:39:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon O'Brien
Post by Ivor Floppy
So you *never* check the oil, water, tyre pressure, brake fluid levels
etc? I'd hate to be with you when you breakdown.....
I thought we'd already established that he's not old enough to drive.
Jon.
It seems that you are old enough to have a big mouth.
Arthur Entlich
2005-05-13 16:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Why do you find it so difficult to accept that people can have
reasonable and even intelligent reasons for buying a certain branded
product that differs from your point of view? I have assisted people in
purchasing just about every brand of inkjet printer depending on their
applications.

If, as you claim, Epson printers caused so many headaches, no one would
buy them, and yet, their sales continue to be strong, and many people
are on waiting lists for the newest models each time they get released.

Obviously, there are those who find Epson printers worth the
"maintenance headache", which apparently must be saying a great deal
about their products.

Art
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos
they produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM
inks the good news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely
cleared. Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning
cycles from their software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning
manual as a resource for going beyond clicking the head cleaning
button, and almost all Epson (and many other printers) can be restored
to excellent function with very little effort or time expended.
Instead of bemoaning the potential for clogs we should focus on these
simple maintenance steps to keep our printers functioning. BTW, my
Epson Stylus 900 clogged occasionally and I only use OEM inks in this
printer. Easily fixed. My Canon i960 with non-oem (carefully
selected) inks has not clogged yet with almost a year of use. When it
does, I have learned from people who post to this and other forums how
to solve the problem.
When you buy a car you really do not want a maintenance headache. You
want to drive. Well the same should be true about printing. You want
to do photography and enjoy the result; not nursemaid a printer.
Post by Burt
Post by MikeD
Post by lokki
Davy,
100% IPA will attack many poly plastics, iirc. Storebought stuff (here
in the US) is generally 91%, and seems to be pretty kind to most
surfaces. I haven't thought about it much, but I don't see why it
wouldn't work to remove ink. The cleaning fluids we are using tend to
have small amounts of glycerin and a lower vapor pressure so they
don't evaporate as quickly.
I'm a little hesitant to try it, though, as the thinner IPA might wick
(capillary action) into the ink well - not sure about that, though.
I use IPA from my local chemist (92% I think) for general cleaning inside
and outside my printers and it hasn't attacked any of the plastics.
For cleaning the nozzles and under the heads I follow Art's recipe for Epson
printers and it works brilliantly.
Mike
Hecate
2005-05-13 22:33:19 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 May 2005 16:01:14 GMT, Arthur Entlich
Post by Arthur Entlich
Why do you find it so difficult to accept that people can have
reasonable and even intelligent reasons for buying a certain branded
product that differs from your point of view? I have assisted people in
purchasing just about every brand of inkjet printer depending on their
applications.
It's obvious why Art - just look at the two words you used above,
reasonable and intelligent. :)


--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
Hecate
2005-05-13 22:30:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by measekite
Post by Burt
Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the good
news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning cycles from their
software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning manual as a resource
for going beyond clicking the head cleaning button, and almost all Epson
(and many other printers) can be restored to excellent function with very
little effort or time expended. Instead of bemoaning the potential for
clogs we should focus on these simple maintenance steps to keep our printers
functioning. BTW, my Epson Stylus 900 clogged occasionally and I only use
OEM inks in this printer. Easily fixed. My Canon i960 with non-oem
(carefully selected) inks has not clogged yet with almost a year of use.
When it does, I have learned from people who post to this and other forums
how to solve the problem.
When you buy a car you really do not want a maintenance headache. You
want to drive. Well the same should be true about printing. You want
to do photography and enjoy the result; not nursemaid a printer.
So you never send your car for maintenance then? I'm glad I'm not
driving on the roads where you are...

--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
Hecate
2005-05-13 22:31:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Burt
Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the good
news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning cycles from their
software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning manual as a resource
for going beyond clicking the head cleaning button, and almost all Epson
(and many other printers) can be restored to excellent function with very
little effort or time expended. Instead of bemoaning the potential for
clogs we should focus on these simple maintenance steps to keep our printers
functioning. BTW, my Epson Stylus 900 clogged occasionally and I only use
OEM inks in this printer. Easily fixed. My Canon i960 with non-oem
(carefully selected) inks has not clogged yet with almost a year of use.
When it does, I have learned from people who post to this and other forums
how to solve the problem.
I suspect, for what Canon users have said, that the head will burn out
before it gets clogged. :)

--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
Davy
2005-05-14 13:53:57 UTC
Permalink
To Lokki/
Uh....I'll have to watch for that I've never come across that, Im sure
Isopropanol is Isopropanol the IPA stuff that is....(meaning there's
only one of a kind).

I'll keep a look out for that but never had any problems , non
whatever, I know that Carbon Tetrachloride will....! I sprayed some
on a switch once and the plastic just melted - luckily the damage was
internal and had no effect on operation of unit.
Isopropanol did'nt do my printer any harm - it didn't do any good
either...What damage can you do to a C62 LoL,,,!

from Davy.
Davy
2005-05-14 13:54:03 UTC
Permalink
Sorry folks I must really give more thought when replying.

Also Lokki,
I use it to clean the rubber drive belts, once it gets all the muck
off you can clean them again and there's absolutely nothing there,
also use it on those white nylon idler wheels you see in video's and
cassettes - deffinately get a C62 to try it out.!

Davy
Davy
2005-05-14 13:54:04 UTC
Permalink
No probs lokki, "better being sure to be sure", come think I even use
it on front panels, sure does get all grease and finger marks of, ok
on glass too, never tried the fluid form you can get - dunno, that
may well be different only used the aerosol type - but certainly safe
on rubber belts.
Davy
lokki
2005-05-14 13:54:04 UTC
Permalink
Davy,

After checking around, I don't think IPA will damage the plastics at
all... I was thinking of Acetone, which will definately attack
plastics. Sorry for the confusion!

Maybe I'll buy some spare parts and soak them in IPA to see if there's
any affect on the rubber belts. Nylon and teflon should be very safe,
so no worries there. One of my biggest problems right now is on a
9600, so I'm not quite ready to just give it a go. I might test on a
2200, since we are likely replacing at least one of them soon.
Burt
2005-05-14 22:21:40 UTC
Permalink
Look for a post near the top of the NG by Arthur Entlich, email him, and ask
him for his Epson cleaning manual. He has a simple formula for print head
cleaning in his manual that you'd best get from him. It is made up of
either the original Windex or the windex that has "ammonia D" - not the
dripless one - plus alcohol. Read his manual for proportions. I used it on
my Epson Stylus 900 to clean the case, waste ink pad, and print head. Also
used it in cartridges to clear out a head clog. Don't try it in yours until
you read his info. It works on dye based ink printers, but he has some
caviats about the pigment based ink printers. Pharmacies have 70% and 90%
isopropyl alcohol and both work. Someone sent me an MSDS on Windex and one
of the main ingredients is, guess what --- alcohol! I'm sure that the trace
of ammonia also helps with print head cleaning. For those of you not in the
US there are comparable window cleaning products.
Post by lokki
Davy,
After checking around, I don't think IPA will damage the plastics at
all... I was thinking of Acetone, which will definately attack
plastics. Sorry for the confusion!
Maybe I'll buy some spare parts and soak them in IPA to see if there's
any affect on the rubber belts. Nylon and teflon should be very safe,
so no worries there. One of my biggest problems right now is on a
9600, so I'm not quite ready to just give it a go. I might test on a
2200, since we are likely replacing at least one of them soon.
Arthur Entlich
2005-05-16 12:12:40 UTC
Permalink
Windex and it's generic compliments are made up of water, glycol,
alcohol, and ammonia (in the ammoniated versions), plus colorant. The
ammonia is actually a critical part of the cleaner for both Epson and
Canon OEM inks. They require the ammonia to create the correct ionic
and pH response. I know of many people who have tried non-ammoniated
window cleaner and the results are considerably worse, and sometime
non-effective.

In the case of the OEM pigmented inks from Epson, the ammonia is
critical to the fluid working to unclog the heads.

Anyone wishing more complete instructions on clearing clogs with Epson
printers, as well as other related printing issues, please email me
privately at the same address this is posted from and I will send you a
copy of the Epson Cleaning Manual at no cost.

You will not be spammed, I have nothing to sell you.

I can be more helpful to you if you mention the printer model you are
concerned with, the specific print quality issue you are seeing, and if
you are using OEM or 3rd party inks.

Art
Post by Burt
Look for a post near the top of the NG by Arthur Entlich, email him, and ask
him for his Epson cleaning manual. He has a simple formula for print head
cleaning in his manual that you'd best get from him. It is made up of
either the original Windex or the windex that has "ammonia D" - not the
dripless one - plus alcohol. Read his manual for proportions. I used it on
my Epson Stylus 900 to clean the case, waste ink pad, and print head. Also
used it in cartridges to clear out a head clog. Don't try it in yours until
you read his info. It works on dye based ink printers, but he has some
caviats about the pigment based ink printers. Pharmacies have 70% and 90%
isopropyl alcohol and both work. Someone sent me an MSDS on Windex and one
of the main ingredients is, guess what --- alcohol! I'm sure that the trace
of ammonia also helps with print head cleaning. For those of you not in the
US there are comparable window cleaning products.
Post by lokki
Davy,
After checking around, I don't think IPA will damage the plastics at
all... I was thinking of Acetone, which will definately attack
plastics. Sorry for the confusion!
Maybe I'll buy some spare parts and soak them in IPA to see if there's
any affect on the rubber belts. Nylon and teflon should be very safe,
so no worries there. One of my biggest problems right now is on a
9600, so I'm not quite ready to just give it a go. I might test on a
2200, since we are likely replacing at least one of them soon.
Davy
2005-05-14 13:53:58 UTC
Permalink
Davy,
I see you are in Manchester. I'm guessing you *don't* work for the
Daby say's
Sorry I don't work for them, not even seen the article, I dunno
what the % of the stuff I use is - it don't say just say's IPA, I get
it from the place I get my TV/Video parts from.
Guess you need to get a C62 to try it on .. !
Kennedy McEwen
2005-05-14 17:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davy
I dunno
what the % of the stuff I use is - it don't say just say's IPA
India Pale Ale - no wonder it doesn't clear your printer!
Shouldn't damage the plastic either, but it will probably leave a sticky
mess. Does it say whether it is McEwans, Stones or Belhaven?
;-)
--
Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)
Hecate
2005-05-14 21:36:36 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 May 2005 18:56:13 +0100, Kennedy McEwen
Post by Kennedy McEwen
Post by Davy
I dunno
what the % of the stuff I use is - it don't say just say's IPA
India Pale Ale - no wonder it doesn't clear your printer!
Shouldn't damage the plastic either, but it will probably leave a sticky
mess. Does it say whether it is McEwans, Stones or Belhaven?
;-)
Perhaps Newky Brown would do a better job?

--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
Davy
2005-05-14 13:54:04 UTC
Permalink
No probs lokki, "better being sure to be sure", come think I even use
it on front panels, sure does get all grease and finger marks of, ok
on glass too, never tried the fluid form you can get - dunno, that
may well be different only used the aerosol type - but certainly safe
on rubber belts.
Davy
lokki
2005-05-15 04:30:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by measekite
I have someone else do that for me.
This is intended to show what, exactly? Presuming enough money, this
could be your answer to just about everything. However, I think you
intended this as a nose-thumbing remark. Given your general approach
to communication here, I'll leave you to figure out just how
ineffective this kind of statement is... which you will probably
never do.

Just as a point of reference, I use my Epson 2200 to produce prints
that win competitions and sell for several hundred dollars. The price
limit is not the print quality, but my skill as a photographer. And I
use 3rd party inks.

But really, the point is that the printer is a tool. One selects a
tool, learns how to use it, and eventually (hopefully) masters it.
Knowing how you have to treat it, what its limitations are, and how
to work within those limitations are essential with any tool, be it
printer, camera, musical instrument, computer, or hammer. And I'm
sure you've heard that it's a poor carpenter who blames his
hammer...

So! We know your views, and you've not contributed anything new in
quite some time. While I enjoy watching people such as yourself
expose their own limitations, nothing really comes of it except some
mild entertainment. At the very least, you are vaguely amusing.
Here's a suggestion; make a new thread entitled something like 'Why
Epson Sucks - My Informed Bias' and spew forth all your thoughts
(sarcastic remark witheld). I further invite everyone to let you have
your space and ignore you to give you the illusion of being
unchallenged. Does that work for you?
measekite
2005-05-15 06:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Maybe you have a competitor that sells prints that are made with an
expensive dye sub printer where the prints really last.

If you sell your prints for that much then you can afford to give your
customers OEM ink.
Post by lokki
Post by measekite
I have someone else do that for me.
This is intended to show what, exactly? Presuming enough money, this
could be your answer to just about everything. However, I think you
intended this as a nose-thumbing remark. Given your general approach
to communication here, I'll leave you to figure out just how
ineffective this kind of statement is... which you will probably
never do.
Just as a point of reference, I use my Epson 2200 to produce prints
that win competitions and sell for several hundred dollars. The price
limit is not the print quality, but my skill as a photographer. And I
use 3rd party inks.
But really, the point is that the printer is a tool. One selects a
tool, learns how to use it, and eventually (hopefully) masters it.
Knowing how you have to treat it, what its limitations are, and how
to work within those limitations are essential with any tool, be it
printer, camera, musical instrument, computer, or hammer. And I'm
sure you've heard that it's a poor carpenter who blames his
hammer...
So! We know your views, and you've not contributed anything new in
quite some time. While I enjoy watching people such as yourself
expose their own limitations, nothing really comes of it except some
mild entertainment. At the very least, you are vaguely amusing.
Here's a suggestion; make a new thread entitled something like 'Why
Epson Sucks - My Informed Bias' and spew forth all your thoughts
(sarcastic remark witheld). I further invite everyone to let you have
your space and ignore you to give you the illusion of being
unchallenged. Does that work for you?
Burt
2005-05-15 06:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Lokki - the question of the day is --- what percentage of your customers
either ask you if you use OEM inks or demand that the photos they buy are
printed with OEM inks? None, you say? How many have told you that they
will only buy your prints if you use a canon IP4000 printer with OEM inks?
I can't believe you said none. Aren't they aware that at the stroke of
midnight pictures printed with non-OEM inks will turn into a pumpkin?

I have always demanded that the mechanic who repairs my cars use only
Snap-on tools. Very important that no compatable tools from Sears touch my
car. Nothing but OEM for me and my pal, Measekite. He has convinced me
that I should resign my position as the president of the Refillers Club (he
described the nonexistant club and elected me to the exalted position of
president). Then he and I can and buy OEM carts from Costco on our twice
monthly trips there - for the rest of my life or the life of my printer,
whichever ends first. Good deal - you save $3 per cart. I'm glad he
convinced me that this is far better than saving $9 on a compatable cart or
$11 on a cart refill. It takes an MBA to figure this out.
Post by measekite
Maybe you have a competitor that sells prints that are made with an
expensive dye sub printer where the prints really last.
If you sell your prints for that much then you can afford to give your
customers OEM ink.
Post by lokki
Post by measekite
I have someone else do that for me.
This is intended to show what, exactly? Presuming enough money, this
could be your answer to just about everything. However, I think you
intended this as a nose-thumbing remark. Given your general approach
to communication here, I'll leave you to figure out just how
ineffective this kind of statement is... which you will probably
never do.
Just as a point of reference, I use my Epson 2200 to produce prints
that win competitions and sell for several hundred dollars. The price
limit is not the print quality, but my skill as a photographer. And I
use 3rd party inks.
But really, the point is that the printer is a tool. One selects a
tool, learns how to use it, and eventually (hopefully) masters it.
Knowing how you have to treat it, what its limitations are, and how
to work within those limitations are essential with any tool, be it
printer, camera, musical instrument, computer, or hammer. And I'm
sure you've heard that it's a poor carpenter who blames his
hammer...
So! We know your views, and you've not contributed anything new in
quite some time. While I enjoy watching people such as yourself
expose their own limitations, nothing really comes of it except some
mild entertainment. At the very least, you are vaguely amusing.
Here's a suggestion; make a new thread entitled something like 'Why
Epson Sucks - My Informed Bias' and spew forth all your thoughts
(sarcastic remark witheld). I further invite everyone to let you have
your space and ignore you to give you the illusion of being
unchallenged. Does that work for you?
unknown
2005-05-15 08:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Sorry Burt
I hadn't realised that you were El Presidente of the Refillers Club....I am
sure that I voted for you at some time in the past.
Naturally you have my undying support, it is important that those of us (like
you and I) that know absolutely nothing about anything support each other in
this our hour of need.
I am however beginning to wonder whether a coup is being planned by persons
unknown, what do you think?
Don't worry I won't let you down. Please do not resign.
Your loyal subject
Tony
ps. I love pumpkins, they look great on Halloween...
pps. What's the pay like?
Post by Burt
Lokki - the question of the day is --- what percentage of your customers
either ask you if you use OEM inks or demand that the photos they buy are
printed with OEM inks? None, you say? How many have told you that they
will only buy your prints if you use a canon IP4000 printer with OEM inks?
I can't believe you said none. Aren't they aware that at the stroke of
midnight pictures printed with non-OEM inks will turn into a pumpkin?
I have always demanded that the mechanic who repairs my cars use only
Snap-on tools. Very important that no compatable tools from Sears touch my
car. Nothing but OEM for me and my pal, Measekite. He has convinced me
that I should resign my position as the president of the Refillers Club (he
described the nonexistant club and elected me to the exalted position of
president). Then he and I can and buy OEM carts from Costco on our twice
monthly trips there - for the rest of my life or the life of my printer,
whichever ends first. Good deal - you save $3 per cart. I'm glad he
convinced me that this is far better than saving $9 on a compatable cart or
$11 on a cart refill. It takes an MBA to figure this out.
Post by measekite
Maybe you have a competitor that sells prints that are made with an
expensive dye sub printer where the prints really last.
If you sell your prints for that much then you can afford to give your
customers OEM ink.
Post by lokki
Post by measekite
I have someone else do that for me.
This is intended to show what, exactly? Presuming enough money, this
could be your answer to just about everything. However, I think you
intended this as a nose-thumbing remark. Given your general approach
to communication here, I'll leave you to figure out just how
ineffective this kind of statement is... which you will probably
never do.
Just as a point of reference, I use my Epson 2200 to produce prints
that win competitions and sell for several hundred dollars. The price
limit is not the print quality, but my skill as a photographer. And I
use 3rd party inks.
But really, the point is that the printer is a tool. One selects a
tool, learns how to use it, and eventually (hopefully) masters it.
Knowing how you have to treat it, what its limitations are, and how
to work within those limitations are essential with any tool, be it
printer, camera, musical instrument, computer, or hammer. And I'm
sure you've heard that it's a poor carpenter who blames his
hammer...
So! We know your views, and you've not contributed anything new in
quite some time. While I enjoy watching people such as yourself
expose their own limitations, nothing really comes of it except some
mild entertainment. At the very least, you are vaguely amusing.
Here's a suggestion; make a new thread entitled something like 'Why
Epson Sucks - My Informed Bias' and spew forth all your thoughts
(sarcastic remark witheld). I further invite everyone to let you have
your space and ignore you to give you the illusion of being
unchallenged. Does that work for you?
measekite
2005-05-15 13:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Sorry Burt
I hadn't realised that you were El Presidente of the Refillers Club....I am
sure that I voted for you at some time in the past.
You got it wrong. He is "Father Burt" of the AfterMarket Club -
Refillers Division.
Post by unknown
Naturally you have my undying support, it is important that those of us (like
you and I)
Pals forever branded
Post by unknown
that know absolutely nothing about anything support each other in
this our hour of need.
You share the same steed
Post by unknown
I am however beginning to wonder whether a coup is being planned by persons
unknown, what do you think?
Maybe its WeStink
Post by unknown
Don't worry I won't let you down.
Do not frown
Post by unknown
Please do not resign.
Your loyal subject
Tony
Which Tony

Tony da Tiger or Tony da Webber
Post by unknown
ps. I love pumpkins, they look great on Halloween...
pps. What's the pay like?
Post by Burt
Lokki - the question of the day is --- what percentage of your customers
either ask you if you use OEM inks or demand that the photos they buy are
printed with OEM inks? None, you say? How many have told you that they
will only buy your prints if you use a canon IP4000 printer with OEM inks?
I can't believe you said none. Aren't they aware that at the stroke of
midnight pictures printed with non-OEM inks will turn into a pumpkin?
I have always demanded that the mechanic who repairs my cars use only
Snap-on tools. Very important that no compatable tools from Sears touch my
car. Nothing but OEM for me and my pal, Measekite. He has convinced me
that I should resign my position as the president of the Refillers Club (he
described the nonexistant club and elected me to the exalted position of
president). Then he and I can and buy OEM carts from Costco on our twice
monthly trips there - for the rest of my life or the life of my printer,
whichever ends first. Good deal - you save $3 per cart. I'm glad he
convinced me that this is far better than saving $9 on a compatable cart or
$11 on a cart refill. It takes an MBA to figure this out.
Post by measekite
Maybe you have a competitor that sells prints that are made with an
expensive dye sub printer where the prints really last.
If you sell your prints for that much then you can afford to give your
customers OEM ink.
Post by lokki
Post by measekite
I have someone else do that for me.
This is intended to show what, exactly? Presuming enough money, this
could be your answer to just about everything. However, I think you
intended this as a nose-thumbing remark. Given your general approach
to communication here, I'll leave you to figure out just how
ineffective this kind of statement is... which you will probably
never do.
Just as a point of reference, I use my Epson 2200 to produce prints
that win competitions and sell for several hundred dollars. The price
limit is not the print quality, but my skill as a photographer. And I
use 3rd party inks.
But really, the point is that the printer is a tool. One selects a
tool, learns how to use it, and eventually (hopefully) masters it.
Knowing how you have to treat it, what its limitations are, and how
to work within those limitations are essential with any tool, be it
printer, camera, musical instrument, computer, or hammer. And I'm
sure you've heard that it's a poor carpenter who blames his
hammer...
So! We know your views, and you've not contributed anything new in
quite some time. While I enjoy watching people such as yourself
expose their own limitations, nothing really comes of it except some
mild entertainment. At the very least, you are vaguely amusing.
Here's a suggestion; make a new thread entitled something like 'Why
Epson Sucks - My Informed Bias' and spew forth all your thoughts
(sarcastic remark witheld). I further invite everyone to let you have
your space and ignore you to give you the illusion of being
unchallenged. Does that work for you?
Arthur Entlich
2005-05-16 12:40:39 UTC
Permalink
In fairness, as much as an inkjet printer may be a tool, the ink and
paper are the product the print purchaser buys. You may not demand
"Snap-On" tools be used, any more than a photographic client would
demand Nikon bodies or lens. But the print's longevity is at issue for
someone purchasing a work of art. I do get people asking about inks and
papers. And I am pleased to see that people buying inkjet (or Giclee)
prints are asking, because it's a fair and important question for people
who buy art they hope to keep, either as a family heirloom, or an
investment.

Getting back to your car, although you may not demand 'Snap-On' tolls,
you may wish OEM car parts, or at least those made by a reputable 3rd
party manufacturer. I only put NGK plugs in my car, because I know the
quality in Spark Plugs can make a performance difference. I don't buy a
spark plug wrench with the same considerations, although even tools do
matter, but not to the end user of the product, usually.

Art
Post by Burt
Lokki - the question of the day is --- what percentage of your customers
either ask you if you use OEM inks or demand that the photos they buy are
printed with OEM inks? None, you say? How many have told you that they
will only buy your prints if you use a canon IP4000 printer with OEM inks?
I can't believe you said none. Aren't they aware that at the stroke of
midnight pictures printed with non-OEM inks will turn into a pumpkin?
I have always demanded that the mechanic who repairs my cars use only
Snap-on tools. Very important that no compatable tools from Sears touch my
car. Nothing but OEM for me and my pal, Measekite. He has convinced me
that I should resign my position as the president of the Refillers Club (he
described the nonexistant club and elected me to the exalted position of
president). Then he and I can and buy OEM carts from Costco on our twice
monthly trips there - for the rest of my life or the life of my printer,
whichever ends first. Good deal - you save $3 per cart. I'm glad he
convinced me that this is far better than saving $9 on a compatable cart or
$11 on a cart refill. It takes an MBA to figure this out.
Post by measekite
Maybe you have a competitor that sells prints that are made with an
expensive dye sub printer where the prints really last.
If you sell your prints for that much then you can afford to give your
customers OEM ink.
Burt
2005-05-19 03:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Art - I agree wholeheartedly with the premise that a person purchasing an
inkjet print as a work of art would be best served to have it printed with
pigmented inks as used in the higher end Epson printers rather than Epson or
Canon dye based inks. When it comes to Canon OEM vs. the better Canon third
party inks, however, my suspicion is that we are dealing with a fairly
narrow spread in months or years of fade resistance from one to the other.
I forgot the link to the rather crude tests that were done with swabs in
comparing various Canon third party inks vs. OEM Canon ink, but there were a
few that were extremely close both in color and fade characteristics. The
Wilhelm tests were on inks that I've never seen recommended by any
individual on a NG or forum, so I don't know how to apply their info to the
inks I am seeing recommended. Suffice to say, the dye based inks don't fare
as well when subjected to light sources and air quality issues that are
known to degrade these images.

When it comes to automotive tools - like any other tool that one wishes to
use reliably over a long period of time, quality counts. Cheap wrenches
tend to get distorted and can dog-ear nuts and bolts and complicate an
otherwise simple job. Cheap screwdriver tips likewise. That there are
several sources of quality tools is well known and the "brand" or cost of a
tool the mechanic uses is of less concern than the quality of work he does
with it.

My use of non-OEM inks in my Canon printer serves my needs. My photo prints
are (from side-by-side comparison) every bit as beautiful as with OEM inks.
I can print and widely distribute my photos to friends and family members
without regard to cost of materials and they can enjoy them in the "here and
now" and discard them later if they wish. The pictures I blow up and
display in my home will be replaced by newer photos now and then, and they
are not intended to be archival quality. It is just annoying to see someone
issue a blanket condemnation of all third party vendors and their products.
If others wish to consider non-OEM inks they should be able to read
objective pros and cons instead of the scare tactics and opinionated rants.
I never intended to become the spokesman for ink vendors - I just hate to
see legitimate business people and their products villified.
In fairness, as much as an inkjet printer may be a tool, the ink and paper
are the product the print purchaser buys. You may not demand "Snap-On"
tools be used, any more than a photographic client would demand Nikon
bodies or lens. But the print's longevity is at issue for someone
purchasing a work of art. I do get people asking about inks and papers.
And I am pleased to see that people buying inkjet (or Giclee) prints are
asking, because it's a fair and important question for people who buy art
they hope to keep, either as a family heirloom, or an investment.
Getting back to your car, although you may not demand 'Snap-On' tolls, you
may wish OEM car parts, or at least those made by a reputable 3rd party
manufacturer. I only put NGK plugs in my car, because I know the quality
in Spark Plugs can make a performance difference. I don't buy a spark
plug wrench with the same considerations, although even tools do matter,
but not to the end user of the product, usually.
Art
Post by Burt
Lokki - the question of the day is --- what percentage of your customers
either ask you if you use OEM inks or demand that the photos they buy are
printed with OEM inks? None, you say? How many have told you that they
will only buy your prints if you use a canon IP4000 printer with OEM
inks? I can't believe you said none. Aren't they aware that at the
stroke of midnight pictures printed with non-OEM inks will turn into a
pumpkin?
I have always demanded that the mechanic who repairs my cars use only
Snap-on tools. Very important that no compatable tools from Sears touch
my car. Nothing but OEM for me and my pal, Measekite. He has convinced
me that I should resign my position as the president of the Refillers
Club (he described the nonexistant club and elected me to the exalted
position of president). Then he and I can and buy OEM carts from Costco
on our twice monthly trips there - for the rest of my life or the life
of my printer, whichever ends first. Good deal - you save $3 per cart.
I'm glad he convinced me that this is far better than saving $9 on a
compatable cart or $11 on a cart refill. It takes an MBA to figure this
out.
Post by measekite
Maybe you have a competitor that sells prints that are made with an
expensive dye sub printer where the prints really last.
If you sell your prints for that much then you can afford to give your
customers OEM ink.
Arthur Entlich
2005-05-19 14:34:40 UTC
Permalink
I don't think we disagree. I was just trying to better pigeonhole the
different markets. For someone purchasing an inkjet print as a
collectable art form, quality and permanence of the paper and ink are
paramount.

I own a lot of tools, and do most of my own mechanical and carpentry
work. If I buy a poor tool, I pay the consequence at times. It may be
less efficient, or less functional, it may break, it may ruin the part I
am working on, it may require replacement more often.

I typically buy tools of any type based upon how often I foresee needing
it. My general toolkits are made up of higher quality products, because
I use those tools regularly. However, unless absolute precession is
required, tools that I know I may need only once a year or less, will
probably be of lower quality to justify cost versus use.

However, if I was working on someone else's cars all day, I would buy
better tolls to insure against damaging their property and well as
wishing to have functional tools. When people produce prints for sale,
they should be using good quality inks and appears to assure the client
gets the value they expect. If you and you family are the consumers of
your inkjet output, then the decision if obviously yours to make.

Art
Post by Burt
Art - I agree wholeheartedly with the premise that a person purchasing an
inkjet print as a work of art would be best served to have it printed with
pigmented inks as used in the higher end Epson printers rather than Epson or
Canon dye based inks. When it comes to Canon OEM vs. the better Canon third
party inks, however, my suspicion is that we are dealing with a fairly
narrow spread in months or years of fade resistance from one to the other.
I forgot the link to the rather crude tests that were done with swabs in
comparing various Canon third party inks vs. OEM Canon ink, but there were a
few that were extremely close both in color and fade characteristics. The
Wilhelm tests were on inks that I've never seen recommended by any
individual on a NG or forum, so I don't know how to apply their info to the
inks I am seeing recommended. Suffice to say, the dye based inks don't fare
as well when subjected to light sources and air quality issues that are
known to degrade these images.
When it comes to automotive tools - like any other tool that one wishes to
use reliably over a long period of time, quality counts. Cheap wrenches
tend to get distorted and can dog-ear nuts and bolts and complicate an
otherwise simple job. Cheap screwdriver tips likewise. That there are
several sources of quality tools is well known and the "brand" or cost of a
tool the mechanic uses is of less concern than the quality of work he does
with it.
My use of non-OEM inks in my Canon printer serves my needs. My photo prints
are (from side-by-side comparison) every bit as beautiful as with OEM inks.
I can print and widely distribute my photos to friends and family members
without regard to cost of materials and they can enjoy them in the "here and
now" and discard them later if they wish. The pictures I blow up and
display in my home will be replaced by newer photos now and then, and they
are not intended to be archival quality. It is just annoying to see someone
issue a blanket condemnation of all third party vendors and their products.
If others wish to consider non-OEM inks they should be able to read
objective pros and cons instead of the scare tactics and opinionated rants.
I never intended to become the spokesman for ink vendors - I just hate to
see legitimate business people and their products villified.
In fairness, as much as an inkjet printer may be a tool, the ink and paper
are the product the print purchaser buys. You may not demand "Snap-On"
tools be used, any more than a photographic client would demand Nikon
bodies or lens. But the print's longevity is at issue for someone
purchasing a work of art. I do get people asking about inks and papers.
And I am pleased to see that people buying inkjet (or Giclee) prints are
asking, because it's a fair and important question for people who buy art
they hope to keep, either as a family heirloom, or an investment.
Getting back to your car, although you may not demand 'Snap-On' tolls, you
may wish OEM car parts, or at least those made by a reputable 3rd party
manufacturer. I only put NGK plugs in my car, because I know the quality
in Spark Plugs can make a performance difference. I don't buy a spark
plug wrench with the same considerations, although even tools do matter,
but not to the end user of the product, usually.
Art
Post by Burt
Lokki - the question of the day is --- what percentage of your customers
either ask you if you use OEM inks or demand that the photos they buy are
printed with OEM inks? None, you say? How many have told you that they
will only buy your prints if you use a canon IP4000 printer with OEM
inks? I can't believe you said none. Aren't they aware that at the
stroke of midnight pictures printed with non-OEM inks will turn into a
pumpkin?
I have always demanded that the mechanic who repairs my cars use only
Snap-on tools. Very important that no compatable tools from Sears touch
my car. Nothing but OEM for me and my pal, Measekite. He has convinced
me that I should resign my position as the president of the Refillers
Club (he described the nonexistant club and elected me to the exalted
position of president). Then he and I can and buy OEM carts from Costco
on our twice monthly trips there - for the rest of my life or the life
of my printer, whichever ends first. Good deal - you save $3 per cart.
I'm glad he convinced me that this is far better than saving $9 on a
compatable cart or $11 on a cart refill. It takes an MBA to figure this
out.
Post by measekite
Maybe you have a competitor that sells prints that are made with an
expensive dye sub printer where the prints really last.
If you sell your prints for that much then you can afford to give your
customers OEM ink.
Arthur Entlich
2005-05-16 12:32:16 UTC
Permalink
No dye sub prints last nearly as long as good quality pigmented inkjet
inks, based upon accelerated aging tests.

Some 3rd party inks may be superior to some OEM inks.

Art
Post by measekite
Maybe you have a competitor that sells prints that are made with an
expensive dye sub printer where the prints really last.
If you sell your prints for that much then you can afford to give your
customers OEM ink.
Davy
2005-05-15 04:30:04 UTC
Permalink
Ah sucks....
thats where the C62 came from......Bedrock... good old Fred and Barny!
Davy
2005-05-15 04:30:04 UTC
Permalink
Burt wrote:

Davy,
I'm a little hesitant to try it, though, as the thinner IPA might
wick
(capillary action) into the ink well - not sure about that, though.


Davy say's.
Just to add, after I drenched the head in IPA, it only took three
cleaning cycles to restore evrything to as it was, it did improve
thing's slightly, but only slightly, so guess I'm right in saying it
did'nt cause ink flow problems.

Whats good for one printer and one brand of inks may not be good for
any other, I have only tried this as a next to last resort. Davy
digisol
2005-05-15 04:30:05 UTC
Permalink
Been there done that with an old S-600, in the fine print it does
state that if you use other than genuine cartridges it's considered
as modifying the printer and thus voids the warranty immediately.

Sorry, but once read you will see, BTW the print is really "small
print"

The print heads are worth more than a new decent printer.
Davy
2005-05-15 10:00:32 UTC
Permalink
Perhaps Newky Brown would do a better job?

Now ya' talkin' - but that's wot Canon uses in their pigmant black!
Hecate
2005-05-16 00:03:56 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 May 2005 10:00:32 +0000,
Post by Hecate
Perhaps Newky Brown would do a better job?
Now ya' talkin' - but that's wot Canon uses in their pigmant black!
LOL!

--

Hecate - The Real One
***@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
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